All right, for the time starting. yeah all right. so hello everybody um today's podcast is something that we've been planning for a little while and it's in relation to domestic violence whether that's from a female perspective a male perspective a trans perspective whatever it is it's just dv in general and I am here today with the lovely jocelyn higgins who I realized this morning I've probably known for like nine years because I'm nine years in business next month and I think you're a little bit ahead of me so We've known each other for a little while, so Jop, if you just want to introduce yourself and maybe just explain what has made you really passionate about exploring the DV space and helping people in DV situations. Oh, hey, Stace. Firstly, before I do that, I just want to say to you a huge thank you for allowing me to come on your podcast because sometimes we're in conflict together and act against each other and we've got businesses in the same town. And I think often that people think, you know, that potentially we don't like each other a because we're women uh you know and that seems to be this um you know myth that's out there that we just can't get along um but you know our businesses have really supported each other I've been in business uh twelve years and you've been in business nine years and throughout that time I think we've had such a wonderful supportive relationship so I'm really grateful for women like you so um thank you um and you know I look forward to another nine twelve years um acting against you And working together in the collaborative space, our firms work really often to resolve people's issues. So it's great to work with women like you. But I'm Joplin Higgins. I'm a family lawyer. I own Joplin Lawyers, which is a Hunter Valley firm. um I've been a solicitor for nearly um two decades now and um I always wanted to be a criminal lawyer that's what I wanted to be except one day I worked walked into the firm that I was working at and they were like the family lawyer had quit I was the criminal lawyer and they were like okay so you're doing family law now and I was like oh my god what And they were like, yep, you're doing family law. And I said, why? And they said, oh, because you're a woman and you'll be good at it. So at the time I was like, oh, okay. I don't know if girls would have that reaction now if the partner of a law firm said that to them. But at the time I was like, yeah, righto, that's what I'll do. So I really had no aspirations going through law school or anything like that to be a family lawyer, but yeah, I thoroughly enjoy family law and I was really happy that that family lawyer quit and the partners thought because I was female, I'd be good at it. So sometimes you just land in the damnedest of places and I think this is one of those situations. Yeah, well, I majored in criminal law as well, so I was meant to be a criminal law lawyer. And then I was doing criminal law. I'm like, nope, I'm out. Yeah, yeah, I know. I think you have a few losses in criminal court and then you see people going to jail or whatever it is and you go, oh, God, this is really heavy. So I think she was pretty heavy on her own. Definitely doing a little of legal aid stuff and, you know, meeting people in the cells and having to go to Cessna jail and all of that. So it definitely would have. helped me in my career yeah um I thought yeah a blonde female walking through a um yeah a jail um wasn't yet wasn't your idea wasn't what you thought yeah um so yeah so today we're speaking relation to dv um so I mentioned before that we're getting a lot of clients so usually when you think of db it's a female being in that relationship like she's the one that's having you know an abusive partner but we're getting the opposite where we have males coming to us let's use the word allegedly um and saying from a female perspective you know three sides to every story um where it's a female that's perpetrating um violence whether it's verbal physical both financial control against a male. So whatever you're comfortable with discussing, whether it's from a female perspective, male perspective, it's probably still all relatively relevant anyway for either sex. But we were saying before, if you can just let us know what some early warning signs are that you're in a DV relationship. We said that if that's all you know, that's what's familiar and that's just how you think your relationship goes and it definitely shouldn't be the case if you're getting bashed every day or verbally abused every day. So what are some early warning signs that whether it's happening to you or you're listening to this and you think that a friend or a family member is in a DV situation, what can people look out for? I suppose domestic violence is spoken in genders because females are statistically higher the victim. Now, that is not to say that males are not the victims of family violence. They are. And family violence, as we all know, takes on lots and lots of different forms. Gone are the days, thank goodness, that we think about family violence in that it's only physical abuse. It has a broad spectrum, which is acknowledged in the Family Law Act, in the definitions, but also in criminal law, in care and proceedings. So all areas of law are acknowledging and defining family violence, which is a lot more than physical violence. But women typically are the ones that are dying from family violence. Now last year, one of the statistics is a hundred and one women died at the hands of a male perpetrator. and that's australia that's in australia um so that's significant I think in in one week was we had five women last year um at the at the hands of their male partner or their ex-male partner um so uh it's not to discount that it happens to men because it does and men are traditionally under report um family violence And it's not a situation where advocates are saying, well, it's not as bad if it's happening to a male victim. That's just simply not the way it's viewed either. I think that's the way males think it's viewed. But that's definitely not the way it's viewed. But when you're looking at this holistically and globally, women are... primarily the victims of family violence. So it's bad no matter what the gender is. So that's a myth that needs to be expelled as well. I think when we talk about relationships I think when you go into a relationship and everything's new but there are warning signs really early on typically in family violence it just doesn't happen when they're married it just doesn't happen one day and that's how the understanding of family violence has really evolved I think it's when um victim survivors have an incident where they go oh my god That is so abnormal. Jeez, that's poor behaviour. But then as women and as girls, we're conditioned to go, oh, no, they didn't mean that. Oh, he's bullying you and pulling your pigtails because he likes you. No, he's not doing that because he likes you. He's doing that because he's a little thug and he hasn't been told any different. And so when you're conditioned like that as we are, as women, and particularly, you know, I'm a bit older than you, Stace, but particularly... Particularly, you know, in our generation, in our mother's generation, in our grandmother's generations, my God, imagine if you thought that that was not normal behaviour because that's what you're conditioned for, right? So it's when what I would be saying to young girls and what I would be saying to women of, you know, my age and older, when you hear that, Listen to your intuition. Listen to the fact that you go, you know what, that's not okay. And you know what, if it's early stages of a relationship, it's easy to get out. You don't have to stay. And that's the messaging, particularly I'm going to do this in gendered, particularly the young girls. We need to be saying to them, no, no, no, no, do not tolerate things that do not tolerate the fact that he turned around and called you a no that's not okay that's that's not right because that comment of you being a that turns into something else and so it's from that moment and then we look at the love bombing and you know, the intensity of relationship, that's also not normal. But I also get that in the infancy of relationship, it is intense. There's lust. There's all of those feelings. But it's when those feelings actually become abnormal. Yeah. Sorry, Stace. It's being able to recognise that. Yeah. And how do we... How do we do that? Well, we do that through education through the schools. So they have some wonderful programs that they're teaching the children in relation to that. And that's in primary school and in high school. But I really think that we need to have more education in the high school because that's where family violence that no one's talking about or relationship violence actually really, really starts, where there's this real disconnect between about what is a social norm, what is okay behaviour and what just simply isn't. yeah I agree and it's really hard if you're growing up like if you're a child and you know in like growing up and that's all you see what happens to your parents it's like okay that's normal and it's break and it's obviously it might be normal for them but it's not meant to be normal in general and it's breaking that okay that they don't have a healthy relationship that's not right and I definitely agree it needs to start with schools I think basics so like my kids are like junior middle and senior school that's what their school is there's no kind of like you know primary school and high school there but um I think there definitely needs to be something probably in that middle school grade so maybe that's from like well in our case it's from year six to year eight and then seniors nine to twelve something basic not so full-on kind of maybe in that middle school bracket And then when you hit high school, when those relationships start to get serious and you're driving and you've kind of got like great range and, you know, I think definitely more education needs to be done in that field. I can't say I've really seen it at my girls' school. They've definitely had... Like, you know, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate type thing. But, you know, it's a pretty heavy subject, I suppose. And, you know, there'll be ways to make it less. Age appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely agree that from a middle school, high school perspective, that's where you're going to get the change because they're not going to be hitting kind of our age. So like forty and above and go, right. So, OK, so I've been doing this for twenty years and this isn't normal. And I suppose just on that, Stace, is one of the things that I find really interesting and I do quite a bit of research on is when we look at perpetrators, right, and we look at because sometimes it is a learned behaviour and that's not to make an excuse for a perpetrator, but you do. A perpetrator is like an onion, so you really have to look at perpetrators what each layer is, right? And so when you drill down into it, you have to look, is there childhood trauma? Have they been exposed to family violence? And in an overwhelming amount of times, yes, they have. And so really then it becomes the question of we look at children and we talk about children in the family law space and we're so protective of children Making sure that they're not exposed to family violence. And by the time they get into the family court, they have been exposed to family violence nine times out of ten, right? Or maybe ten times out of ten. Very rare that you're running a case that doesn't have some form of family violence in it now, right? And so you look at that child in the victim lens and then they turn eighteen and then they... continue to conduct themselves in the manner in which they have been exposed to throughout their childhood. And then we are no longer compassionate about that person. And I really think, particularly for younger perpetrators, You know, if they were victims, then they need to unlearn the behaviours that they have learnt. And I by no means am saying that they should not have accountability and that they should not be held at task for the manner in which they act. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you have to understand a perpetrator. Because there's very few perpetrators, in my view, that are just violent to be violent. There are always reasons. There's always reasons for the way in which all people act. And potentially, the outcome for the way in which they act is that they have no contact with their children. And that's appropriate. because you're breaking a cycle. But I always just find it really interesting, particularly when they're just in that older adolescent stage, monkey see, monkey do. How do you know not to act a certain way, particularly when they're in high school and their father's treating their mother really, really poorly? Yeah. How do you know with an adolescent brain that that's not how you're to act? So family violence is actually a really, really complex subject because you're dealing with people. Yeah, I agree. um agree so like you know I've done a whole lot of different study apart from law so I'm doing a clinical hypnotherapy component at the moment a lot of that is in relation to trauma and a component of it was exactly what you said so um it's in america uh I think the amazing thing coming to australia I can't think of the name the name circle is in it but effectively it was this um organization going into like prisons in America and it was I believe it was an optional thing like you weren't if you're a prisoner you weren't forced to do this and in this case it was all men and they would stand in a really big circle and they would ask questions so the first question might be please take a step forward if and in this case it was father and mother like female and male if your father yelled at your mother and some of them were too scared to step forward but then a lot of them did and the next question was please step forward if you physically your mother and they kept on going and going and going and pretty well all of the prisoners that were in there were all subject to it um And that's really sad. And again, I'm not saying it's an excuse like you are. It definitely goes through. It's a factor. Yeah, there's a lot of layers that that goes through. And, you know, some people will probably never change. No, and that's right. They are just perpetrators of family violence. And to change, you have to have accountability. And to change, you have to have insight. And to change, you have to have empathy. And so, you know, that's a lot of things. You know, it's only three things, but that's a lot of things, right, to have to do. And that's why the perpetrator programs are so important It's an important step. It's not the cure. Cooperative programs are not the cure, but they are an important component in us stopping family violence. And it makes me super sad that in Australia we have all the research from the rest of the world and we still are not doing it right. The government still is not funding it. You can fund victim services till the cows come home and the victim services should absolutely be funded, one hundred percent. I'm not saying take money away from victim services. I'm saying put money into perpetrators, put money into the program. Don't make it a sixteen week course. You're not going to change in sixteen weeks. What do you learn in sixteen weeks? We don't do a university degree in sixteen weeks. It takes time. Fifty-two weeks. In Israel, you know, the moment that there's family violence and the police attend, the perpetrator is removed from the home. The Department of Community Services is engaged immediately. They are engaged with a social worker and that matter is before the Family Court within seventy-two hours. Wow. The perpetrator has to continue to pay, if they're working, all the mortgages so that there's not post-separation financial abuse perpetrated. They have to live elsewhere. And then they go through the family court in a pretty quick succession of events. But they act immediately. Wow. So there's definitely takeaways that we can get from other countries. There is just so, there are just so many wonderful things that other countries are doing. And we're sitting here trying to, you know, reinvent the wheel. The wheel's invented to all the politicians that I hope actually watch this, you know. It's invented, boys. And it's time to get on and understand. For them to understand, you know, Chris Minns made a comment the other day that it's just really hard because no one understands the typology of perpetrators. Incorrect. we do understand the typologies of perpetrators and and there's many it's not just one or two but there's things that the government that that they can be doing to protect children and to protect women and we really fail we really fail because you know there's all these competing voices um and competing for for money and besides a developed country that's um It's pretty crappy. I like it. Yeah, it's disappointing because what it does is it puts women's lives at risk. And last year was just a shocker for what happened to women in our communities. And it's really like they don't, you know, they don't care. Like them, you know, is what it is. Right. just continue on like like you know their lives are worthless and you do hear women saying and feminists saying you know if it was a hundred and one men my god what would they what would they be doing you know like what's going on you know the women have gone mad um you know why are they killing us you know and there'd be all of these reforms and there'd be this and that and and you you You know, these children that lose their mother or are subjected to this significant violence where it ends up in a death, how do they repair? They don't. Yeah. Well, that's assuming that they haven't been involved in a death either because it's not just, you know, the parents sometimes. Sometimes the kids find themselves in that situation as well for not having their own. Yeah, that's exactly right. So... Yeah, it was, we're in Port Quarry last week, just going on like the whole female, you know, like we don't matter type thing. It was on a plaque at one of the lighthouses we went to. And it was basically men are born to earn the money and look after the house and do all this. And the grant, it was like late eighteen hundreds or something this this piece of information was from. And then my kids were, so my two girls were with me. And then when it came to the female section, I got it on my phone. It was something like a female's purpose was to marry. like that was it and it was like there was no other purpose for a female other to marry and I'm looking at that even my girls looking at like oh my God like was that what it was like I'm like yeah and you know what it kind of probably still is the same like if you probably haven't developed um where we should have back then but just rating that in writing I was like oh my God it was the first thing I ever saw that actually just said a female has no purpose other than to Just to marry. And I'll actually put it up when we load the podcast up. But I was happy that my girls just went, oh, my God, Mum, that's not right. I'm like, no, no, it's not. And there's been some real trailblazers before us, right, that have paved the way for you and I to be able to work. for you and I to be able to make a decision to stay at home if that's what we choose, to be able to have bank accounts, to be able to go for a mortgage. It wasn't that long ago. It was only the seventies where women really couldn't go for mortgages. So there's a lot that's happened. with our rights, but that doesn't mean it's over, right? There's still inequalities which need to be addressed. Definitely agree. So coercive control, that's something that kind of that's hit the media, I suppose, maybe the past few years. Do you just want to give us a breakdown of what coercive control is? And maybe if there's any signs that you're in a relationship with coercive control, and just get anything else you might want to say in relation to that topic. Yeah, so coercive and control is probably the most insidious form of family violence. And I can remember as a junior lawyer, running coercive control arguments before it actually had a name, where I was trying to form patents for the court to show them what was happening in the lead up to there being physical violence usually. And I can remember that it just fell really on deaf ears what I was trying to achieve. And now we're talking about it twenty years later, which is really great. But coercive control can be many things. It can be isolation. It can be a look. It can be a person knowing that if they get a text message and it has no kisses on it, that means something to them. So it's not always obvious to the world at large what controlling and coercive behaviours are. It actually can be something that's just intimate in that relationship, which that, from an evidentiary point of view, makes it really, really hard to prove and to evidence. So what you have to do is show the pattern of behaviours. And those patterns aren't always the same. they're quite different. So isolation, the silent treatment, not allowing you to go to Woolworths, timing you to go to Woolworths, giving you a hundred dollars a week for a family of five and having to make it stretch. that far, no access to bank accounts, even though one party earns a hundred and eighty thousand dollars a year, the other party earning money and it has to go into a bank account that they don't have access to. You know, like it's just it really is how long is a piece of string. But there was a Pickford and Pickford come out in December by the full court. And it said that the victim doesn't have to establish what the intent of the perpetrator was. It's merely how they receive that behaviour. And so that was a really important point. piece of law so showing that it's not it's not you don't you don't have to intend it to fall a certain way it's how I perceive your behaviors towards me um you know there was a lot that was made around the um the legislation in regards to criminal um um um in the criminal courts in regards to controlling and coercive behaviour. I have had and still do have real reservations in regards to that because it was kind of marketed as, you know, this is the silver lining for victims of family violence. But it is really hard to establish. But my major concern was... are our first-line responders, are they educated, are they trained enough in relation to understanding what controlling and coercive behaviour is? And when a victim comes in, are they going to be able to follow the pattern that the victim, and when you're dealing with someone that has trauma, It is not always easy to have a chronology of how their mind is working due to the effects of trauma. So, you know, do the police, because that's really who I'm talking about, have that skill set to be able to, you know, manoeuvre their way through the pattern of behaviour? I think a lot of people were really excited about that bit of legislation. I know that there's been some charges of that, but it doesn't seem to have deterred perpetrators because really it's just so insidious. Yeah. And do you think it was, you know, we were saying before how we're so far behind in other countries. Do you think it was, look, let's put this in to, you know, show people that we're doing something about it, but they haven't quite gone far enough with it perhaps? Look, you know, we have gone far enough. When you looked at Scotland, they had tremendous success in Scotland, but they also put in millions and millions and millions of dollars to training their first responders. And they did an enormous amount of training and they had huge success with that legislation. England then implemented it. and and did very little training with first responders and it was just a bit of a nightmare and then australia we did it the the government said that the police had training and they did they did have training um they they definitely had training on it but was it enough I don't I don't think so um that takes years um to develop and the police will develop better skills, I think. But it's not the silver lining for victims, that's for sure. Yeah. So financial control. So that probably ties in with what we've already discussed as well. Yes. There's one person who will say usually it's the male controlling all the funds and, you know, female getting a pocket money for, you know, yeah, a hundred bucks to feed the family and buy school uniforms and school shoes and, you know, all of that type of thing. Anything you want to say about the financial control of it or whether, you know, having a secret bank account somewhere like what would be your tips if you're really um feeling vulnerable especially if you've had kids and you're staying staying at home looking after the kids you know you might feel that I'm only worthy of getting a little bit of money per week because I'm the one that's at home and they're the one that's working let's hope that's not what they're thinking but yeah in relation to the financial side uh what do you get what comments to have about that I think, first of all, with financial abuse, I think that in a relationship, sometimes there is always one party that possibly and probably is a bit more savvy with finances. And during the course of dating and moving in together and then marrying, one party often you know, takes the lead in regards to finances and we've got this bank account and should we have a shares account and all of those sorts of things. That is not financial abuse. I agree. And that's really important for people to understand that everyone has a role in relationships and that is a part of the relationship and the roles in which we all take. So... That's important to understand because this scattergun approach of, oh, my God, that's financial abuse, it just simply isn't. The key to that is that when that person that is the leader of the financial discussions in a relationship, that they are discussions, that you're talking about, well, this is where we're going to move this money and what if I did that with this and we've got that little lump sum and this person's offering this interest, should we put it in a term deposit for three months? That's not financial abuse. That is a conversation. Financial abuse is... is where you have no access to funds. Financial abuse is where money is being leveraged against you. Financial abuse is when you have debts in your name that you never signed for. That's financial abuse. And, you know, I've seen recently with OnlyFans that I've seen that victims are being ushered into doing things that they probably would never have done because of the financial abuse trying to get money. um funds whatever that looks like um in regards to that that social media and and those transactions uh that is financial abuse so um financial um financial abuse is um so detrimental um to a victim, survivor, it takes away their autonomy, it takes away their ability to make decisions, it isolates them. And so it just feeds into all these other forms of emotional, psychological, controlling and coercive behaviour, you know, an erosion of self-esteem, you know, all of those sorts of things. Financial abuse is not just about money. it then feeds into all the other streams. So financial abuse is actually really easy to identify and it's easy to identify really early in your relationship. And I would say to anyone that they should not give up their bank account, that they should, if there's joint monies, it should be in a joint account. um that you make yourself extremely vulnerable um when you lose access to funds and see before states remember when you could go and get twenty bucks out at Woolies and it didn't come up on your on your docket you know um you could women did and could you know, have their little cunning kit to be able to leave. But given how everything is electronic now, that just makes that so much harder to be able to have secret bank accounts or secret money, you know, for a rainy day when they're fleeing. from a really violent situation. So it's, you know, whilst technology is great, it's also been a massive Achilles heel for victim survivors, in my view. Yeah. Do you have any tips for somebody who might be trying to... Leave. Yeah, so we'll go to the... No, no. Sorry. Sorry. I'm already like half air. I'm like, oh, there's so much more I want to say. Yeah, tips to maybe preparing to leave. So whether, you know, it's financial, coercive, abusive, whatever it is. And, you know, especially when there's kids involved, I often see people asking, I'm in a DV situation. I don't know what to do. I have no money. I don't work. He works and all of that. If I need to leave, I need to leave tomorrow because he's at work, like all that type of stuff. there's somebody planning on leaving and there's obviously elements of that if they fear that their life is in danger and their kids that's going to be possibly a little bit different to someone who thinks that they're not fearing their life but there's all these other things that are leading to that relationship breaking down what tips do you have for somebody that's trying to set themselves up to leave an abusive relationship Okay. So the first thing is you have to have a safe person. And whether that's a friend, a colleague, or a parent, you need a safe person. You need to establish a form of contact with them that can't be intercepted by the perpetrator. So that is important. You need to have those conversations. It's really hard for victims to be honest about what they're um experiencing because there's so much shame attached to it and they feel you know as as if they're stupid because you know how did I not realize this but sometimes it all happens you know all these signs are blurred and it just it's just one of those things um so have that safe person get your documents out birth certificates get the children's passports out because that is often used in post-separation as a threat of what's going to happen. So get those documents out. I know this is going to sound superficial, but if there are things that you have from your great grandmother or things that you hold dear, get them to your safe person because once you leave, you're never going back to that house. It's a form of control for the perpetrator. You're never going to be allowed back in. The moment you go cap in hand asking for things, that just flames their control over the situation. So they do need to be prepared. If there's joint monies, well, it's in joint names, they can take those funds out. I'm not saying spend it, but at least if you've got control over it, then that's a better situation than... It being put into a bank account where you can't see what's going on. And often when that money's gone, it's just gone. The court often can't claw that back. So get control of any finances that you possibly can. Start to try and understand what your financial situation is. And this is if it's a long term, you're thinking about leaving. You know, they may not leave, but they need to understand their financial situation. I can't tell you how many women come in to me and they do not know how much is owed on their property. They don't know what their property is worth. They don't know how much super there is jointly between the parties. They don't know if there's shares, but I think there was a conversation about it, but I don't know. So, you know, that's that financial coercion. But try and understand that before you leave, if you're going to leave, because it's a lot easier, even if it's just a broad spectrum of understanding, you know. So they get what you want from the house. do it in the safest way possible that you can when the other party is at work you know if there's a safe way to do it where you don't impact the children when they're at school or whatever that looks like but but um if it's safe to do so do it when you know and it's right to do so do it when the other parties are not there Yeah, and would you suggest telling like, you know, would you consult a lawyer? Would you go to the police? Like what about from like an authority? Yeah, I think it's always really important that if you're thinking of leaving, you should get legal advice. Even if it's just a broad spectrum of what the property pool is and what you could hope to get from that. So then they can start making some financial decisions. in regards to okay well I can afford rent or okay I can go to a mortgage broker and I can do x y and z and then it also the most important thing is what does it look like for the children what is that going to what's that going to be so you can have some really constructive dialogue potentially once you've left in regards to what what it's going to look like for the kids and where they're going to live and all of those sorts of things It's never as calm as we're talking now. And I don't suggest that it ever will be. But I think that pre-planning and having advices and getting your ducks in as much of a row as you can is really important. But the safe person is the most important strategy when leaving because Most victims try and leave many, many times before they actually leave. It's not that they get up one morning and go, yeah, I've had a gutful. It's not that at all. It's really a long process. And the safe person has to understand that. The safe person can't be, oh, my God, why hasn't she left? Well, she hasn't left for many reasons because she's The victims do love the perpetrator. They just want their relationship to be safe. If you really talk to victims or victim survivors, they say that we have wonderful times. It's just when this happens or when this happens, if we could take that out of our relationship, it would be wonderful and you know they have this longing for their for them to have that loving person which at certain times that they that they know um throughout the course of their relationship yeah and probably also you know tracking is really big I know I track my girls they like three sixty make sure you take the tracking off your mobile so you know you're not easy Yeah, get your cars checked, change your passport. Yes, I had it on my list, but I'd popped up before. So there's definitely been more people say, hey, I think I'm getting tracked. I think there's like an air tag or something in my car. Is that a take it to a mechanic to see if they can find something? Like what happens if you think you're being tracked? Yeah, we usually get our people to see an IT person. If it requires a new phone, then it just requires a new phone. A lot of people are really savvy now and the tracking and the stalking is at a new level, particularly over the last twelve months. I've found that stalking is really, really concerning. And stalking is something that people should really be concerned about because it is an indicator when you look at homicides and domestic violence deaths. it they're all stalked and so um uh yeah get that um technical advice that you need change passwords change them again just in case you're not sure um you know understand what family things are linked together um you know the family sharing and all of those sorts of things So there's a bit of a list that they really need to have when they are going through this, how to detangle themselves from the technical and technology of their family unit. I think we need to put all this together for that, yeah? Yeah, yeah. I think we need to do that. Safety plan. So I suppose the safety plan we discussed, it's your safety person, right? So it's got to be someone that you trust, that you know is not going to go to your partner or your ex-partner and go, hey, let me know that she's looking at leaving you. You know, it can be anybody, but it has to be somebody that you can trust. And as you said, if you've tried leaving a few times, you don't want that safety person to say, oh, here we go again, it's not going to happen. They need to understand that trying to leave a DV situation can be really difficult and perhaps they have left multiple times but then they kind of sucked back in or I will change I'm a different person or whatever whatever it is so it's not like they're trying to do it on purpose or or whatever it can be really difficult to leave especially if they're so mentally brainwashed I suppose that that person's changed or will change um so I suppose the safety plan is really just that safety person. Yeah. And as we discussed, if you think you're getting tracked, maybe go to an IT company and make sure that your car's not tagged, take yourself off your family sharing and your family devices and all of that. There's probably nothing really else we need to add to that. Do you think? no um I think that if you're in imminent harm though all of those things go out the window um and you get the children and yourself out as quickly as possible you call the police um and you um do all the things that you can because you know what a birth certificate and passport can be replaced right um sentimental things probably not but your safety is is the most important thing. And so there's a real difference between if I'm planning to leave and if I have to leave. And if you have to leave, get to the police, do what you need to do in regards to ensuring that you're safe and following the police's advice. And then you should go to a lawyer immediately so that you can get advice in regards to what to do with children. Because if there's a significant family violent incident, Victims often agree to the damnedest agreements, which really are often not always safe for their children, but they're trying to calm a situation down. that they actually have no control over. And so they get into situations where let's just, for example, a shared care arrangement where really it's a no time arrangement, which is what the court would probably consider. It's really hard to walk those things back. it's really hard to walk that back. So that legal advice in the first instance is really important. And sometimes you just have to get into the family court immediately to ensure the safety and ensure that you do what is required to ensure the safety of the children. And you're probably going to know that, you know, so we're both collaboratively trained, but you're probably going to guarantee that your matter is not probably going to go down the collaborative path. It's probably going to be difficult. So there's a lot of, like, you've got to prepare yourself mentally for that, but it's not going to be a rainbows and unicorns family law matter. It's highly likely going to be difficult and probably drawn out and draining and, you know, The family court's not for the faint-hearted, right? But the thing is that there are just some matters that have to be determined. There are some matters that need the scaffolding of the court in that family unit, and that just simply is the way it is. Not all matters are no-time cases. That most definitely is not the case. You know, the court's going through a flow again where they're really questioning no contact, even though they're talking about family violence, but what's the threshold for there to be no contact? So the court's very conscious about what does that do to children that don't have contact with one, you know, where you're severing a relationship with one parent. That also is not an easy task either. But when we're talking about that high level violence, sexual coercion, physical abuse, it's just got the whole gambit of everything that we talk about. Sometimes they just simply are no time cases for the safety of the children, but also the safety of the mother. Yeah, definitely. So I suppose the legal side of things that we discussed, going to a lawyer, going to the police, you know, there's ADVOs that can be put in place. There could be emergency housing, anything else from a legal perspective other than going to the police, maybe putting an ADVO on. We were talking about support services that we're based in, like the Hunter Valley, Newcastle area. Are you anything above an ABVO? Are you aware of any amazing housing options for people? Anywhere that you can think of, but obviously we're in the Hunter Valley region. There's some really good services. For example, in Singleton, you've got the Neighbourhood Centre, which is a really active community member. the upper hunter they have um all the um supports at the qe two building and they also have the upper home upper upper hunter homeless um service uh down here in maitland you've got carrie's place you've got the um hume's housing um compass housing you know you've got you you've got a lot of services jenny's place you've got a lot of um services nova which are phenomenal advocates, VOCAL, which are phenomenal advocates and provide counselling. I suppose that would be just the other tip that I would say to victim survivors is you need to go to counselling to be able to unpack, move forward, create safe boundaries for yourself and the children moving forward. There's no shame in getting counselling, it is absolutely something that you should be doing that is a high priority for yourself. And so all of those services offer those sorts of supports or can navigate you to where you should be. They also offer programs. So Shark Tank is a good one. Yeah, absolutely. They offer some really great victim-focused programs that assist with self-esteem, identifying red flags, because one of the concerns is that if that's all you know and that's all you know about a relationship, you're highly likely to go back into a relationship that has some of the same key indicators. So that's a real fear. And the other tip I would say to people is please don't jump back into another relationship. Please take time. In family law, you often find that one party seems to repartner. Like you hear people go, oh, my God, you know, he had a girlfriend within six weeks of leaving. But in relationships, normally one party leaves during the relationship. They do their grief. They do their... um the separation of emotions during the relationship and then the other parties is completely devastated and when they I didn't see this coming like how could this be happening how many times do you hear that states like honestly all the time What I would say to people is whilst you've done your grieving and you're eight months ahead of everyone else, your children have just lost their family unit. So a reintroduction of a new or an introduction of a new partner and your life going on while the other parents here are completely devastated by, you know, a shock, which probably shouldn't have been a shock, you know, but they are. Be mindful. of your children, be mindful of how they have lost their family in it. Because it's not just about mum and dad, it's about the children. And now they have two homes, they have two beds. They have two of everything now except all they really want, most kids, is for there to be one house and mum and dad together. So be mindful and respectful of your kids. That would be a big take-home. That's not got anything to do with family violence. That's just really about family law. Yeah, actually I did. So you've got my course that you're aware of and actually did a module or lesson yesterday on the separation spectrum and it was exactly as you said that, you know, there is probably someone that has been checked out of a relationship for a while and they've processed like in their mind that might be still together but they've gone and then you've got that person that was blindsided by it and they didn't know that it was coming and maybe they should have known maybe they didn't know um but and it's then how the family law matter is going to go so you might be ready to charge ahead and go go through the probably set around everything but the person over here is probably still going like wtf what's just happened and like I'm still processing this so that also has to be taken into account and again it's not necessarily db related but it's like hey you might have to wait for this person over here to catch up just because you're here and the other person here you might just have to be a little bit patient yeah yeah and it's just that you know which and we're talking about um relationships you know in these circumstances where both parties have the ability to be emotionally regulated and um have a bit of insight oh someone's happy a bit of action on high street in maitland Right, so I think we've probably, I mean, there's a few other points here, but I think we've pretty well covered all of it. The only other thing I had was the biggest challenges that people can face, which we pretty well already have discussed as well. And we've let people know some resources and some local support services, at least to the Hunter Valley. If there's any more you can think of, let us know. We can pop them in the notes. But I guess the biggest thing for me is just know that there's no shame in where you are. There really should be no shame in anything. Is there anything that you want to finish off today that you want to let people know more? Yeah, I think family violence is really hard to reconcile for the victim survivor and for the children. And I think that it really does take a village to be able to support, and I say women, once they leave these relationships. If you're supporting a victim survivor of family violence, it is not at your pace. You cannot have unrealistic expectations of, well, why don't we do this and why don't we do that? Because this person has been dealing with trauma and there are lots and lots of side effects of trauma. A lot of people leave and there's significant brain fog. There's significant angst. There's an inability to make decisions because their decision-making powers have been taken away from them. They sometimes find it really hard to parent if their parenting role has been diminished during the course of their relationship. So it's not just she's left. awesome let's get going that's not realistic you need to be an ear and listen you don't have to solve their problem because they're solving their problem by taking the first step of leaving so that's that's not that's not our role um as active bystanders in the community our role is to assist them through their journey and so be patient be forgiving if it's not going at your pace and understand that there are so many layers that need to be unpacked that need to be addressed and there's a reconditioning for victims of having their autonomy and rebuilding their self-esteem which is often really really really low yeah absolutely great well thank you very much I definitely think that we could do way more for it already an hour but I definitely think that we'll be doing uh more in the future so thank you for your time today and I hope you guys found today's podcast uh really helpful so I'll catch you next time
