All right. Now, I've been caught out before with the saying it's recording, but it wasn't recording until the timer started. Sorry. Sometimes it just puts up with me talking, and I'm like, right, so now you can get it, because I know it's recording. So I wouldn't go back and, like, film the start of labour again. Okay. She didn't take too long. But you learn these from, like, my mistakes. yes and so if we make mistakes you your magical people can edit mistakes or if I can say look cut that out or can I start that again and yeah okay great yeah it's pretty good I just load it up I'm like right there I'm like make it pretty yes perfect my stuff up's in there actually um because it's like I'm not perfect yeah sorry yeah yeah yeah that's great yeah myself and know telling just to leave it in there I don't really care but it depends what I'm doing but um it shouldn't take too long to come on any time okay all right hang on I've just lost my questions sorry okay hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the stacy m show today we are talking personal injury and workers comp with the lovely jemma barn who I've known for I don't know, a very long time. I don't know how many years it is. Probably like nine odd years. I think you were just behind me when you went out on your own. So workers' comp and personal injury are a cause that we get, but we don't help clients in that area. It's a very niche area. And Gemma's in Gunnedah. We're in the Hunter Valley. We're surrounded by coal mines. So we thought it would be a really cool opportunity to talk a little bit about workers' comp. So Gemma, if you just want to start off with your elevator pitch as to who you are and you will get started. Okay, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. So yes, my name is Gemma Bunner and my firm is Shaw and Bunner Legal. We have an office in Gunnedah. We also do have an office in Brinkston. I co-founded the firm with Kerry Shaw, my business partner and colleague in And we had both come out of a large firm, namely Slater and Gordon Lawyers. I'd worked there in Sydney and Newcastle for around about twelve years before starting our own firm. And we've really created a very specialised boutique personal injury law firm. So that's all that we do. We don't do any other areas of law. We focus on personal injury and in particular have a skill set around assisting those workers injured in or about coal mines. And so particularly in the Hunter Valley and in the Gunnedah Basin, we're well placed to assist those workers. Yeah. And you're a credit specialist too, I think. I am. So in twenty twelve, I obtained my specialist accreditation in personal injury law. So I went through quite a rigorous exam process to get that qualification. And every year you have to do additional study to keep that qualification there. So, again, just specialising in that personal injury space. Yeah, a hundred percent because it is very, as we touched on before, I used to work for an arbitrator and I touched on a little bit of like workers' comp cars, personal injury type stuff. And it's very, very niche. I think you would be struggling to find a lawyer who would be able to do that area of law and then all the other areas of law. And because things change so often as well, I remember like it's been really big legislation changes like with workers' comp. over the years so the fact that you've niched in that I know you started off doing a little bit at the start obviously that's what we all do to get the funds in the door so we don't you know shut up shop but the fact that you've been able to now just completely niche in personal engineering workers comp it's obviously a compliment to you because there's obviously people out there that have absolutely no problem using you and trusting you and referring to you for all that type of work and Kerry as you mentioned is super lovely as well I've known Kerry for probably about the same amount of time as you and like you are you are passionate it's not like you're just kind of a client's another another matter number you like you really want to help them you know fix that area of life because sometimes it's really life-changing if you have been in an accident or something like you know you might not be able to work ever again so you're dealing with You know, a lot of emotions are literally people's future, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is a very emotionally charged area of law. And most of our clients come to us at a very vulnerable stage post-injury. So we are passionate about doing the work that we do in that personal injury area. And even within personal injury itself, there's quite a few different niches as a personal injury lawyer, whether it's motor vehicle accidents or public liability, medical negligence or workers' comp. So it can be quite a complex space. Yeah, and your workers' comp and personal injury, like what's your niche under that banner that you just mentioned then? Yeah, yeah. So look, probably, you know, seventy percent of my file load would be coal mining workers' compensation claims. But I do some, a little bit of medical negligence and certainly some motor vehicle accident type work and a little bit of public liability. So it depends on the nature of the matter, but primarily we're really doing workers' compensation would be our, yeah, that's right. Yep. So what inspired you to go down the personal injury route? Is that an area that you always did at Slater and Gordon or you kind of fell into it and stayed in it or how did that happen? Yeah, so I started as a grad in Sydney in the personal injury practice area, particularly workers' comp, and I really loved it. Yeah, that's right. I've done little bits and pieces over the course of my career but always came back to personal injury. I think even coming through my law degree, I loved the topics like torts where you were dealing with a factual scenario and individuals and people. And I loved looking at a set of facts and applying the law in a way that provided a result. And as opposed to, for example, really strict commercial law or taxation or even property, I really enjoyed the people or the personal aspect of doing that sort of work and Coming into it, I've thoroughly enjoyed helping people. That's what we do at the heart of personal injuries is really helping our clients move through a really difficult stage and applying the law in a way that can try to provide certainty for them moving forward. So I think that's what's drawn me to the personal injury space. Yeah, I absolutely love talks. And I think it was like the only thing I got to have to say, but there's no way I'll do your job. I love it now, but I'm like, this isn't for me. Yes, yeah. So how about you tell a little bit about how you and Kerry ended up founding Shore and Bunna. You touched on that a little bit before, but what made you, I'm assuming it's probably like everybody and that you just wanted to do law a little bit different, similar to me, but let us know what led you down the path of creating Shore and Bunna. Yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. We had reached a point in our careers where we'd worked for a very large firm and had a fantastic, I personally had a fantastic career through the larger firm environment, worked with some wonderful people and learned some great skills in that big firm space. But I just saw a real opportunity to work in a smaller boutique practice to allow us to deliver our services in a very personalised way that sometimes the big firms just can't deliver. So particularly in a personal injury space where we have had really large file loads and a lot of clients and files to handle on a day-to-day basis. Whereas in the personalized, sorry, I'm not answering this very well, Stace. All right. Let's edit this part out. Let's edit this part out. Let Jim find a beat. Yes. Okay. So you were asking me about starting the firm. Yeah. Okay. What led you to starting the firm? Because I know when I started Aqua, it was the It was nothing against where I'd worked in the past, but I knew what I was doing differently. And obviously you have the flexibility, like my youngest and my eldest were starting kindergartens, like whole work-life balance, which we realised was really a lot of shit. But yeah, what led you, Kerry, to start your own practice? Yeah, okay, great. So we'd reached a point, I had had two children. So my daughters, I believe my youngest was maybe about, when I left Slater and Gordon to start Shore and Bunna Legal. So certainly trying to create a bit more balance around being present in my family's lives and also pursuing a fulfilling career. So that was really the driving aspect. As well as having gained that experience from a large firm, that was an incredible opportunity to work for a large firm for such a long period of time, worked with some great colleagues and built up that expertise. But I felt that we could deliver it in a much more personalised way in a boutique setting as opposed to, you know, working within the constraints of a large firm. So that was really the driving force behind why we created Shore and Bunna Legal. Yeah, and I think, as I said, that's what I did. I think our kids are very similar ages. I think Josie would have been about eight, ten months when I started working door to door back then. And I know Lil was about twelve months or starting kindy, I think. And yeah, oh, we had to drop them off at school and pick them up and, you know, not have to work. And I'm still trying to find where that work life balance is. Yeah, that's right. And I was commuting into Newcastle. So I was traveling an hour in and an hour out and just daycare drop off. And it just wasn't feasible long-term and how I could manage that. And really, yeah, that, that was the reason I do recall. So Kerry had her first bub when I had my second. and we were within five days of each other in the maternity ward. So that was really, you know, really, we sort of didn't tee it up exactly to be in there at the same time. So, yeah, and she's got two young kids as well. And it has been, I mean, definitely has its challenges in those early years, but just that level of flexibility that you can, you know, pop up to tuck shop or you can get there for that school assembly, whereas that may not have been the case before. had I remained in a big firm environment in Newcastle. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of clients like understand that. I know when I first went out of my own, like I was just working from the lounge room. We didn't even have a kitchen table because we never ate at the kitchen table. And, you know, a client would want to see me because I didn't have an office back then. And I was like, oh, I've got my kids. I have to wait for, you know, leave to get home or whatever. They're like, it's okay, just bring your kids to the house. It's all right. I'm like, okay. So they made appointments. My kids attended. Like, they all set up with, like, their little playthings and, like, food and walking around with little stuff. Like, it was, you wouldn't get that in, like, I wouldn't have been allowed to do that, like, in any past employment. So, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's nice when the clients understand that, you know, you do have kids and you know, if you want them to tag along, then yep. Sure. That's on you. So yeah, absolutely. Um, what would you say a typical day would look like for you? Yeah, so my days differ quite a lot. So I live up in Gunnedah now. I have lived in the Hunter Valley for many years beforehand. So I work between our two offices. So on any given day, I could be working from Gunnedah. I'll be seeing clients, but do a lot online as well. So we do a lot of Teams meetings or teleconferences. On other days, I could be travelling to Brankston, have a day in the Brankston office, go down to Newcastle, stay the night and then have a full day of hearings the next day. So a lot of our court time is down in Newcastle or sometimes we're down in Sydney. So I could be jumping on a plane out of Tamworth, flying down to Sydney for the day and back. So, yeah, every day is very different, which is what I like. You know, it keeps it interesting. Yeah, you don't want the same day every day, right? Because otherwise you're kind of over it. Yeah, that's right. And quite a bit of travel. I think that comes from working and living regionally as well. It's accepted that you're going to get in the car and do some travel. But yeah, every day is different. Awesome. And you've touched on a little bit before. What do you reckon is the most rewarding part about your job? Yeah. is just helping people, working with people. And we might be with a client for up to two years or so, subject to the nature of the claim, but we get to know them. We get to know their family. We really understand their life for that period of time and help guide them through. So, you know, I've had even a client the other week that I think I resolved his claim in twenty twenty one, just emailing me to give me an update on you know, what he was doing and checking in. Yeah, like you get to know your clients really, really well. So I find that very rewarding that you can give some guidance and help and support through that difficult time, yeah. Yeah, and being in a small town as well, chances are you're going to know a lot of the clients that walk in the door, which there's pros and cons of that too. Yes, yes. Yeah. I don't think you could be, I'm probably going to regret what I'm going to say. I don't think you could be a lawyer and not care about people. And as I was thinking and saying that, I'm like, okay, so I know that those people exist, but you know, I don't have, you know, the I mean, we can be like a therapist, we can be a counselor, we can be a lawyer. There's a lot of roles that sometimes we have to fulfill, like either whether it's in personal injury or family law or even probate states. Like a lot of the stuff we do is really emotional. And I think the fact to just have that little bit of personality in there and understanding You know, you know that clients are going through a really hard time and they might bark at you but you know it's not at you and then they come and apologise and say it's all okay, like, no. And checking out, like, we have clients that keep bringing us, like, baked goods in weekly or we have clients that bring us in, like, you know, flowers and stuff. We don't expect it but it's really nice to know that you're obviously making a difference and especially when you have a shitty day and something like that happens. It's like, ah, okay, well. That makes it all worthwhile. Yeah, yeah, it does. It really does. I keep in my inbox a folder of really positive emails and reviews that we've had. And it just, yeah, when you are having a bit of a day where it might be challenging or it might be dealing with a difficult, you know, solicitor on the other side or it's just nice to check and be like, yep, this is why we do this. We are helping people and the majority of the time it's really positive. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So as I said, we're pretty well surrounded by coal mines. So I know we get a lot of phone calls with people with different areas of personal injury, whether it's cars, whether it's workers' comp, mining, whatever. For someone that has been injured but hasn't had to worry about contacting lawyers in relation to an injury before, can you give us a quick rundown as to what personal injury is? I know there's a few different banners. So just wanted to know, and we've kind of touched on it again before, but what is under the banner of personal injury law? Yeah, so personal injury law firstly is state to state based. So in New South Wales, we have different laws than other states, which is not always the case in every area of law. So we are New South Wales based. And within that general umbrella of personal injury, we have workers' compensation, we have motor vehicle accidents, We have public or product liability, so a slip and fall in a public place, for example. There might be medical negligence where an injury has arisen due to malpractice. Things such as industrial deafness, so hearing loss that's related from work. We have dust diseases. So, you know, for us, we talk about coal miners, unicorniosis or black lung, those sorts of conditions. So it can be fairly... broad but essentially you've developed an injury or an illness arising out of the course of either employment or in a motor vehicle accident sometimes it can be a frank injury so um you know the working example you go to work in um you know an incident occurs in an exact time and date or sometimes it can be something that has occurred due to the nature and conditions of particular job that you've done for three years or so and it's like what we deem a disease process that has continued to deteriorate and then causes incapacity so it can be fairly I guess broad reaching but essentially an injury or illness that has arisen or sometimes we also are talking about fatalities so it might be you know sadly a fatality at work or it could be a motor vehicle accident where fatalities have occurred or wrongful death in a medical negligence situation. So someone's gone to hospital for treatment and something's happened and they've sadly passed away. So it's a fairly broad area in that sense. Yeah. With the, if somebody had passed away, are those claims brought on by that person's estate, I'm assuming? Like how does the death part fit into that? Yeah, so it depends on the circumstances and each area with personal injury will have different requirements to be met. So it also, let's think of an example, one we have at the moment where there's been a death of quite a young person in a hospital setting due to the negligence of the hospital. In that case, we have a claim on behalf of the family members for what we deem nervous shock for the psychological impact that they have or the psychological effect of losing their loved one in this way. In some cases, if that loved one was providing support, for their family. For example, they had a spouse and children that were dependent upon them. There is what we call a compensation to relatives claim where we can claim the loss of the dependency that would have flowed from that individual if the death occurred in negligent circumstances. But, yes, there are other circumstances where the estate would pursue a claim as well, yeah. So I suppose if there's someone out there that, you know, unfortunately somebody has passed away due to workers' car accident negligence or whatever, still reach out to, you know, perhaps yourself or a personal injury lawyer because you will be able to let them know whether there is a chance of something or, you know, what path you have to go down, whether it's an estate thing, whether it's a, you know, whatever there is of options that you have, just don't think that there are no options. You know, you'll know straight away whether, yes, you're likely to have a claim, we can pursue this or, you know, this isn't going to perhaps, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not going to result in something if there's a death involved, but You'll be able to write them as to, you know, what options they have available, I suppose, depending on the circumstances. Yeah, absolutely. That's right. And the key with personal injury lawyers is most lawyers, if not all, will act on what we call a no win, no fee basis. And that includes that initial consultation and discussion around the potential claims that might be available. So what I'm driving at there is it doesn't cost someone to go and speak to a personal injury lawyer and to get some initial advice. And it might be that there are some avenues that could be pursued. And if so, they are generally pursued on a no win, no fee basis, meaning that the lawyer is not paid until successful completion. And in most cases, the fees are recovered from the insurer for those legal fees. So it certainly doesn't cost someone to get some advice around what may be available. The other key thing to keep in mind is there are some key timeframes in the personal injury space in different areas. So it's helpful to try and get advice sooner rather than later around, you know, what might be available. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it can be pretty traumatic. Like, you know, so someone might have lost capacity but still be alive. Someone might have passed away. You're dealing with, like, the grief process and all the rest of it. What is, like, a general... timeframe that someone can use in the event they're in this situation, but they also need to make sure they keep within the timeframe of perhaps pursuing a claim. Yeah, at best six months would be the latest. That's what I'd recommend. If it is a motor vehicle accident, there are some additional things that can be claimed within the first twenty eight days. So they're probably the two key. If it's a motor vehicle accident, twenty eight days. at the worst six months is probably those key timeframes. We also work to a very rough sort of three-year timeframe as well to make a, and again, I'm talking very broadly across the range of the areas. Yeah. Like, you know, with a probate bar with like, you know, you just grade, you do your thing, like we have to wait for your certificate. Yeah. don't think you have to go rushing out to do things so in that case we just tell clients hey yes there is a time frame for probate too but we don't want to push people into doing something when they're still going through that grieving process and especially the one death that was kind of on the card so yeah of course yeah time planning of you know not forcing that you have to just you know that person's had that car accident they have to call a lawyer like well you know there is a bit of leeway but unfortunately the law is the law and unless there's you know an out of time application option if you don't stick within that time frame then you perhaps have just lost your chances in you know trying to recover some compensation for that Yeah, yeah. And look, very strictly speaking, you know, I'd like to think the six month mark is the key. But then more over three years is also another key limitation date in most of our areas. But with anything, you know, if there's a reasonable excuse, and that's how the legislation terms it, or if there is a reason why your action hasn't been taken within that three year timeframe, you can seek an extension of time. And again, you'd want to get advice around that. But Yeah, probably looking at six months, three years. They're really the sort of key timeframes. Yeah. So, um, cool. Thank you. So, um, we've probably already kind of covered this a little bit as well, but what do you recommend the most common types of personal injury cases that you see? So a lot of that is probably mining. Cause that's where we're surrounded in a new settings after Jeff knows that would be really high as well. Um, they kind of the main. injuries that we have here in Australia or New South Wales if it's jurisdiction based? Yeah, yeah, look, definitely, you know, physical injuries like backs, necks, shoulders, knees, particularly in the mining environment. That's very common. You know, we have seen an increase in coal miners dust diseases over the last five years. So that's sort of an emerging space there in the larger dust disease space. Silicosis is on the rise. obviously with the tunnelling that's been going on and engineered stone benchtops and all of those sorts of things, certainly an increase in psychological injuries in my time over the last ten years or more. And whether that's really, I think some are arising from incidents themselves, like PTSD, they've been involved in an incident and witnessed like an illness or something of that nature. or we have seen an increase in sort of those bullying harassment type cases in the workplace and, you know, psychosocial issues arising from a problematic culture and those issues can lead to someone going off work with a psychological injury. Yeah. So going back to Torts, one on one, how would you explain negligence to people who might be listening and not sure? Yeah, in a really simple sense, the defendant or the other party, they must firstly owe you a duty of care. So they are someone that owes a duty of care and there's been a breach of that duty. So something has happened where the duty has been breached and the person has sustained an injury as a result, but that it was reasonably foreseeable from the defendant or the person who owed the duty of care that someone would sustain an injury if they breached that duty of care um if that's a simplistic way the can or whatever it was it's like so came back then from like towards like yeah yeah it's hard to explain I suppose we know what we know but yeah maybe we need to get like that nail in the can or whatever that court case was like yeah fifty million years ago But essentially, yeah, somebody should be looking after you and they approach that. And there's obviously different elements and stuff that has to be taken with that as well. But essentially, it's like, you know, for our employees, we have that duty of care to make sure our employees are looked after. If we've slipped up, then, you know, there could be consequences of us slipping up. It was reasonably, you know, likely an accident was going to happen because we haven't, I don't know, taped cords on a floor or we haven't, yeah yeah and it's it is a question of reasonableness so you know say there's a problem with a machine and the employer knew about it so faulty plant the employer knew about it they'd been told about it there were reports put in about it they chose not to do anything about it um let's say a faulty ladder on a dump truck they didn't tag it out they didn't fix it an operator comes along steps on the ladder, it falls off and they hurt themselves. Okay. That's really clear that they knew about it. They had a duty to provide reasonable, safe plant equipment. They didn't do anything about it. It was reasonably foreseeable for them to think, well, if we don't fix this, someone's going to come along and could sustain an injury. And when we talk about negligence in a lot of the work we do, a negligence claim is available if there's a legally serious injury that flows from it. So I often like to talk about two buckets, so to speak. So we need a bucket of negligence and we also need a bucket of serious injury. So some of the areas we do have thresholds around what a serious injury is. depending if it's workers' comp or MBA, we often look at like a WPI assessment. There's some thresholds that need to be met. But sometimes we... Whole person impairment too, for people who don't know who that is. Yes, sorry, yes. So essentially a scale that the government says, well, your injury is serious if you get over this percentage. And that's when you could pursue a common law or a negligence claim. But what we often deal with, we might have a client where the negligence is really clear cut. We've got a bucket load of negligence. Let's use the latter example, but the person's had a very minor injury. They have a week off work and they're back at work. So that's not a common, that's not a negligence claim. Even though the negligence was there, the person thankfully has not had a serious injury. Had that person fallen off and, you know, really like broke a leg, multiple fractures, chronic pain, you know not getting back not not going back to being an operator so the injury is serious then that's a negligence claims you've got negligence and serious injury sometimes we have serious injury and it's you know it's catastrophic but it's really hard to show the negligence it's hard to be able to pinpoint what went wrong what happened sadly sometimes it's it's simply an accident it wasn't avoidable so we need a bit of both if that makes sense we need some negligence and serious injury to advance a negligence claim. Yeah. Without breaching confidentiality, we all have those stories that stick in our heads. I know I have a number of stories. Is there a most successful story that you have in your mind for a result that you've achieved for somebody? Yeah. Yeah, probably one of the biggest settlements I ever achieved was for, and I'll be very general to keep confidentiality, obviously, but my client was an older person and it was a medical negligence case, actually. The hospital had... It was a very clear error in the way that the hospital had dealt with this person. And we achieved a settlement sum and he'd been left in, you know, requiring twenty four hours, seven days a week care, really, and a significant toll on the family. And this family were based in a small regional town. They didn't have a mobile phone at the time. They did not have internet. They had a landline. They tried to get some advice from a larger firm in the city. I think it was just that communication breakdown, to be frank. It only just took an off-chance discussion that I had with another family member that put me in touch. I went and met with them in the home, got to know the family. We assisted with a claim just in time, actually. We stepped in just as we were coming up to the three-year timeframe and ultimately achieved, you know, I think the settlement sum was, you know, sort of three or four million dollars. And he'd come so close to not... getting anything because of that lack of communication and being regionally based and just not getting advice. So that sticks out to me as a really memorable case because it just took that, you know, going to meet with them in the home and getting to know them, that personalised level of care, which I talked about at the outset is what we really try and focus on, that we were able to deliver such a life-changing experience. result for that family and set him up um you know he could then move into an appropriately modified home and it yeah that that's probably what one that sticks out in my mind yeah and I suppose um to tack on to that second opinion so you know whatever the reason was for why it's taken up two to three years whether it was you know crap communication or whether they said oh look you know we'll You know, maybe they thought their claim wasn't going to be big enough so they weren't going to get paid enough because, unfortunately, there are lawyers who look at that way as well. Sure. Or just didn't have that personal touch or their opinion wasn't going to be successful. You know, given most people have a no win, no fee, if there's someone within your grant that's telling you, look, I don't know if I quite agree with this advice, make sure you go get that second opinion because they either could have missed out on that couple of mil, which... you know, that's a decent sum of money to set somebody up to, you know, have to, you know, be dependable on people for the rest of their lives. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I would emphasise that even for those people that have a current claim with a firm, if they don't think that they're getting the right advice or they're just a little bit concerned about how their matter's being handled, it's possible to get another opinion and, If that was appropriate and you thought, okay, well, you know, that sounds like the right firm for me, you can uplift the file and go to a different firm. And I don't say that to be critical of any other lawyer, but, you know, it's key that the client feels comfortable with the advice that they're being given and the representation, yeah. Yeah, you definitely have to have that client. client lawyer relationship like if you don't mesh with your lawyer and that's for any area of law it's probably not going to end really well and it's going to be a probably a horrible process in a process that is probably already horrible due to the circumstance so definitely afraid to to get second opinions because you know that second opinion might be what you need to you know um have a successful claim I suppose so yeah that's right I'll just yeah just feel heard through the running of your case as well and that you know that you've been um appropriately advocated for yeah absolutely so what do you reckon is the toughest case again obviously confidentiality what would be the toughest case you reckon you have ever had in your career yeah this is quite a personal one for me um I was I was a younger lawyer, and it was a fatality that had occurred for a truck driver in the mining industry. And I was speaking with the wife, and she told me the story that her husband was working night shifts, which is very common in the mining industry, as we all know, and that he had phoned that night to say goodnight, and he was having his crib. And then she went to bed, and he worked through the night. And she said, look, that's what he always did. He'd ring and say goodnight. And, you know, then he'd be home at seven in the morning. And she woke up to the police at the door and a fatal accident had occurred through the night. And it was personally, personally, emotional for me at the time because you know my husband worked in the industry and we would be much the same if he was on night shift he'd ring and you know say good night he's off working yeah and I'd go off to sleep and um you know and I remember going to the home and meeting with her and you know she was a beautiful woman um and was devastated as you would imagine and it just really drove home to me the fragile you know the how fragile life is and how things happen so quickly. So that was a, a big learning curve as a younger lawyer. And I look, I think any case that involves a fatality is, is difficult. And, um, you know, what you take from it is just to know how your everyday you is a, is a gift and it's just, you know, brings you back to that, um, and how quickly things can happen. So, um, Yeah, that's one that has always stuck with me. Yeah. Yeah, and I get that. Like, you know, they're told to work on half-hour shifts. If you're working off-site, I know, like, when Lee was doing it, he used to have to travel to, like, Canada and, you know, Mudgee and all of those. And, you know, if you're doing four or five shifts, like doggy or, you know, night shifts in a row, you know, then you've got two days to recover, then you probably go into a day shift and you've got to go back to afternoon and then you go back to not like it. And then because I've done so much travelling with like just where I've worked, I usually cross night shift workers going home and the amount of like speeding and waiting because they're falling asleep, the windows are down, you can hear the music like. Yeah, yeah. know that's probably a whole other conversation to to have but um yeah yeah like I oh yeah your routine is exactly that bring it before you and the kids go to bed yep having cream see it in the morning just assume that that's routine and that will happen and sometimes unfortunately that doesn't happen and um you know you need to be able to support clients through that which pretty well leads to the second question so I said before, we're often counsellors, we're therapists, we're everything. I don't think being a lawyer is enough sometimes, especially in your area, in family law, in probate estates. I mean, I've had clients who have suicided as well over the years. So it's really tough, you know, no matter what area that you do. How do you... support clients who are going both through the legal stuff and then you can see that there's obviously personal challenges in there as well whether it's for the family um who are left after a death or you know somebody who's maybe lost capacity or you know the worker themselves having to have their whole life changed and then to that it's probably like your mental health as well so um what are some tips you can do um just around maybe your mental health and for people going through this area of law. Yeah, look, I think the biggest thing is really having concise and gentle communication and constant communication and carving out the time to be available And to meet them where they're at, because it is such an emotional time. And I feel where issues have arisen in the past is where they're not getting the communication that they need around. And it might just be a quick five minute phone call, but for them to know, like, it's okay, we've got you. we're handling this don't you worry about the legal side we've got that under control you just focus on you and what you need to do right now whether that's supporting the children or you know let's get you into a counselor like have you spoke to your GP let's get a mental health plan like sometimes we liaise with the treating providers as well um because at times someone might come to us and be like no I'm fine I don't you know I don't need to speak to someone and and clearly know they need additional support so it's that gentle look maybe just chat to the gp let's try and get you know let's get some counselling that could help and just trying to be um I guess across the board both we've got the legal but let's try and make sure you are supported emotionally and whether it's getting some counselling right now and that additional level of support and not just be so focused on the legal and we don't care about how you're doing. We're just going to do the lawyering job over here and don't you worry. We don't really want to involve ourselves in what you're doing. That's not how we operate. I think it's that cohesive. Yeah, you want to know that they're best supported. Absolutely. Yeah, we're exactly the same. I kind of think it's negligent. I feel sometimes that it's just not like, as I said, I've had client suicides and it wasn't even a family law file or an estate file or something. You know, you're personally going through that. Like we were talking before we went on that, you know, it can be taxing emotionally to do our job, especially when you're dealing with kind of really serious accidents and things. But to have someone as another matter number and go, look, I don't care that you have a mental health problem. Like we have to do this. Like it's just it's clearly not in either of our natures to. Yeah. to do that we'll say you know especially if it will matter so we will work as fast as the slowest person so you know it's not uncommon for us to have clients even at a hospital um we mental health concerns and us go look you're gonna have to wait like we're not pushing them over the edge like there is you need to back the bus up and you just if there are time frames to be held then you know we'll deal with that but I'm not forcing my client to to be under duress and making decisions and making their mental health work because that's not an area of law or that's not how you practice. So, you know, supporting the family or the worker and then having to kind of deal with a lawyer on the other side who might not see the same as you, that can be like a whole other fun thing. ball game to play as well. Yeah, that's right. I think we're often dealing with firms that just see our client on the paper, you know, what they read in medical reports and clinical notes. And They can often be, and look, we do work with some wonderful defendant lawyers, but their take on a case is very different to us representing that injured person. They're going to stop you getting money. Yeah, that's right. And knowing that they live and breathe, like this is their every day. And often our clients are not working, they're recovering from their injuries and their claim is the most prominent thing in their mind. Right. they just want that communication piece. And we try to really foster that because they want to know that we're moving, that we're doing something. And, and I think that's key to keeping them informed, but also the sensitivity and the timing around that communication as well. And as I said, meeting them where they're at, and if they do have a psychological condition, whether it's PTSD or it's, knowing that that impacts the way they will run their day-to-day and communicate as well. So if they're having a bit of a tough day and that might come through in the way they're speaking to us, I understand why. I know that, yes, this is a really difficult time and it's okay. And, yeah, we're here to support you. And that's a day not to get instructions. Yes. Like I might call, we might touch base next week or I'll call back tomorrow. Like it's not a time to divorce a person to make a decision. So that's exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So we kind of talk about this as well. So one of the questions we had was if you are injured at work or a car accident, what's the first thing that you should do? So we've obviously spoken about timeframes, but, you know, if it's like a car accident, it was always called the insurer. Like so whoever... And obviously, like I'm not talking, I've had bad car accidents, but it's like I've bought the insurer to say, hey, I've just let someone run up my butt. Here's the details. You know, what is the first thing to do if you have been incident, if you have been incident, if you have been an accident in either like a car or a workplace setting? Yeah, sure. So a car setting, the best advice I could give is to jump on the website for CIRA, which is the State Insurance Regulatory Authority in New South Wales. And they sort of look after our motor vehicle accident scheme, so to speak. There are benefits that initially are available if you lodge the claim within the twenty eight days, if you've had an injury. And I'm talking in the sense, you know, property damage is something different. But if you've had an injury as a result of that car, You want to definitely get the rego of the other driver. But even if you were the driver at fault, there are some initial what we call statutory benefits that will be available. But it's important to get that claim in within the twenty eight days. But you go on their website, the claim form will be there and it's a pretty easy, you know, this is how you lodge a claim. But it's important to sort of do that within the first twenty eight days. In terms of a work injury, I cannot emphasise enough to report an injury as soon after it happens. It's it's really crucial, particularly what I see in the mining space. If you don't report it at that time and it might be you think, oh, it'll settle with time. It's not that big of a deal. It'll recover. And then a few weeks later, it hasn't. And then you go to report it. It's just a world of hurt around what benefits can be claimed at that time, but also the attitude of the insurer. So the insurer is going to take an issue with why you didn't report it at that time. Even if there's a concern around reporting it, if you think, and again, I know in a real life environment, people can get a bit nervous about what that might look like in terms of jeopardising employment. I've got situations where clients have been on a fixed term contract as a trainee dump truck operator, for example. They really don't want to jeopardise getting a permanent shirt and those sorts of things. In those scenarios, at least tell someone, go to the doctor and get it in your clinical notes. So there is a contemporaneous record that something has happened on that day. But at best, report it as soon as possible after the incident. Yeah, and I'll grab the details with that CIRA website you said. I'm not familiar with that, so I'll make sure I grab the details and I'll stick them in the show notes in case people need them. Because, yeah, that wasn't something I was aware of either. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I suppose any mistakes people should avoid when making claims. So I suppose that's probably delay and not giving the full information about the incident, I suppose. Would that be a fair assumption? Yeah. Yeah, spot on, is delay in reporting, but also what they report. So a common mistake I see is, you know, you might have an incident and it's involving your neck and a shoulder, but the neck's the main problem, so you don't worry about the shoulder, you just list the neck. Yeah. the shoulder becomes a problem. And then the insurer will say, well, you never put the shoulder on your claim form. You didn't tell us about the shoulder. Shoulder could have happened later. We're not accepting liability for the shoulder. So just be like, if there's a niggling pain, just put it down. If it settles, then fine. But it's there in that initial document. And just try and... Yeah, detail orientated, like where were you when it happened? What time did it happen? Were there witnesses? Who were they? Jot them down now. Just trying to get as much information as possible around the incident at the time that it happens. Yeah. Because it'll, yeah, as you said, like the insurer will go, well, tough titties, you didn't put it down. That's your problem to deal with, not ours. In some cases. Yeah. And like, if you see a doctor, make sure you tell the doctor everything that, you know, how it happened, what you were doing at the time. So again, that's a, contemporaneous record of the incident going into GP notes and I also would say don't delay getting medical treatment sometimes we see people go through what we call early intervention which might be the company preferred either seeing the company preferred doctor or the company preferred on-site physio regime and they haven't had the benefit of seeing their own independent GP or their family doctor and things can be missed or not treated in those initial stages and that can create some some issues later on as well yeah um because we're coming up to time I'm going to throw an extra question in here that is not on our list so yeah but it's only because I saw um a recent video that you did on it so workplace debate so I'm going to take this thing so that sometimes there are people that take advantage of things and they might not legitimately have you know a lifelong injury or something and you know They are out there. But surveillance was something that you spoke about recently about, you know, if you do have a claim, you could be under surveillance. So if there are people out there thinking they want to kind of put a dodgy claim in, can you kind of tell us why not to do that? What the consequences of that might be? Yeah, absolutely. And look, don't put a dodgy claim in. Like the compensation schemes are not overly generous. You know, I just don't think there's anything... to be gained at all. And as a lawyer doing this work for many years, I learn pretty quickly if there is any element of not being a genuine claim. And we just simply won't take it on. Yeah, we can choose to do that. So surveillance, it doesn't cause people an issue if they are honest about what they can and can't do. And that comes out in practice if they've gone to see a doctor and they've said to a doctor, I can no longer do you know I can't ride my motorbike anymore haven't been able to ride my motorbike for the last six months and then the insurer might have footage of them riding the motorbike date stamped in that six month period so that causes all sorts of issues on credibility for that person and also cast a doubt on you know what they're saying about other things that they can and can't do whereas the reality might be look I can still ride my bike but I'm a bit limited I can only go for hour trips now that I've got to pull up and stretch or, you know, I used to ride it every weekend. Now I probably take it out once a month. That's okay. That's fine. Just it's about being honest around how you're doing that activity. The other point on that is social media. Like social media is huge in this space and no doubt in all the work that you do as well, likely in the family space. So insurers will do social media checks, right? they will look at what you're doing and posting. And if that is at odds with what you're either told a doctor or given sworn evidence to what you can and can't do, then that's going to cause significant problems on credibility. Yeah. So don't do it. Yeah, don't do it. But, you know, sometimes they don't listen and then you've got to go, well, we kind of told you so. So, you know. Yeah. Backtracking. So it's just not. Yeah. That's right. And look, in the claims that we do, you know, all of your clinical notes will be subpoenaed. So the other aspect is, you know, you can't like tell us things, like tell your lawyer, it's okay if you had a previous back injury, we can deal with that if we know that it's in the background and you know, shapes the advice we give. If you don't tell us that and then we're six months into the claim and a clinical note pops up that you've had a scan of your back all those years ago, that's a problem because we're six months into the claim, we haven't known about it. So just be really upfront, transparent. It can all be worked through, but you need to be telling your lawyer exactly what's going on. Yeah, and just for those out there that might not know what subpoenaed is, subpoenaed just means that A legal document has been issued to, say, your doctor and they have the right to release, like, your file, basically, which would cover all prior injuries. So sometimes memory might fade. So there could be a legitimate or crap. Yeah. I had that, which could be the case. But the more upfront you are, yeah, because if you are, if you do kind of hire that type of staff, you're doing yourself and possibly your family an injustice because... as you said, it's going to come down to credibility and you're going to have a harder time trying to perhaps argue your case as to, you know, why you should be receiving compensation for something if you've been, you know, perhaps hiding something from the past. So it's just, I can get people get nervous. Like I can get, like I can get that. But yeah, you need to be upfront with your lawyer because it could save you a lot of issues. Yeah. It could pass down the track or something. That's right. Like, we're here to help you. That's our role. That's our job. But we can only work with the information that we're given. So, you know, please disclose everything to your lawyer. It's important. Please. I told you so. But, you know, your options might be really limited in that case. Yeah, that's right. I'm not sure you disclosed everything. So to wrap up. um what advice well actually I saw something in the law society something rather I don't know the journal or one of the newsletters they get and it says that women are actually topping men in um practice certificates at least within new south wales I don't think it was australia based I think it was new south wales so there's clearly more lawyers coming um out there from a female perspective than a male perspective um but you know what advice would you give to somebody that's maybe looking at starting a starting studying law or they might be at law and current at law, my lord. They might be at uni studying law or they might be coming up to the end of their legal studies and thinking about what position to go out and try to get. Do you have anything that you'd like to say just for people kind of within that phase of thinking about a legal career or heading towards the end of their studies? yeah yeah great question I think there's probably two things I'd say to that um one is networking and it's never too early to start networking and and meeting people um and we're very lucky now in the social media space um in terms of how you can connect and collaborate with other lawyers, whether it's on LinkedIn now or Instagram. I have found it to be a really supportive and collaborative collegiate type space to engage with other lawyers, particularly from coming out into our own firm. That's how we've connected with a lot of other lawyers. I would say to young people, it's never too soon to start that. It might be that you approach someone to grab a coffee in your hometown if you're living regional or if it's Newcastle, whatever it might be, you'd be surprised at how helpful other professionals will be. So it's never too... soon to start that my second piece of advice would be really try to find an area that you've got a genuine interest in and I know when you come through law like there's such a broad range of jobs you can go into you might not ever go into private practice you could be in house or you know in a government role and try and test out what you can but really engage with something within the the legal space that you think you've got a personal interest in I think that's relevant I mean I spoke before about I love the people aspect of doing personal injury and more over to my background like I come from a coal mining family like my you know father uh, brother, uncles, cousins, grandfather, they're all underground coal miners. And I now find that that really aligns with my background, my childhood. that I can get to help those people and I feel that's really fulfilling you know I don't know that I could have ever gone in to be a corporate lawyer for Rio Tinto for example that may not have aligned well with my upbringing but so I just say that in the sense like really find something that aligns with you know what you're interested in and what you're passionate about yeah so last question what's for Shaw and Fana or Gemma. What's on the cards? So we've obviously got Ganadhar. You said you're sitting in your brand new office, literally. Yes. Thank you guys. Very bare at the moment. We literally took the keys two days ago. So our main office is in Brangston in the Valley. And then we have had a satellite office, but we've now got, we've just moved into a permanent office up here. And primarily I'm welcoming a graduate lawyer to the team on Monday, which I'm very excited about. So the team is growing and I think we'll continue to grow over the next little while. And yeah, the You're just focusing on continuing to deliver that personalised service, which is at the forefront of everything that we do. We try to run a client-centric model in that boutique space and hopefully grow in a nice, sustainable way that we can keep that level of service and keep delivering those results to our clients. And, yeah, continue to do good work, I suppose, is what we're focused on now. All right. Well, thank you very much for today. We've had this in the pipeline for a little while. I thought it would happen. Try and get two boys to spend an hour doing this. It's a little bit difficult sometimes. Before we wrap up today. So we'll put links and stuff for that website you spoke about before with having a car accident and obviously your details and your bio and stuff, if people would like to reach out to you for a personal interview point of view or just maybe there's a young lawyer in the Garda area that's wanting to get into that area. But is there anything you want to say before we wrap up? Yeah, no, look, I don't think really touch on the beauty and the benefits that come with practising in the regional areas as well. There was so many questions. We're like an hour. I'm skimming. No, no, no. Can I ask a question? So I'll wrap up with that in terms of, you know, young lawyers, like, look abroad. Like, post-COVID, opportunities are endless and amazing and we can work anywhere, just, you know, have some decent Starlink. And, yeah, I just think the options are endless. So I'm happy to connect with anyone. Or if you're looking at personal injury advice, you know, feel free to reach out, whether it's to our firm or any other personal injury lawyer. it costs nothing to get initial advice so for peace of mind just you know have a chat and see whether there might may or may not be something there um but thank you so much for having us days it's good to finally lock it in I don't know how long we've been talking about doing it but yeah but thank you very much for joining um today uh yeah as if there's any questions at all please reach out to jim um that anyone that we get, I send to those guys, because this is not an error of all that we're practicing. Or like, are you talking about passion? It's not that I don't want people getting injured, but it's just not my niche that I, and I have come up from that coal mining culture as well, as the majority of people here have, but it's definitely not an error of all that we cover. So more than comfortable to throw your name out there, because I know that you will look after the people who send your way. Thank you for, oh, and Kerry. Sorry, Kerry is here too. Can't forget Kerry. It's not the Gemma show. It's the Gemma and Kerry show. We're lucky to have a great team behind us. And interestingly, I think even with our new recruit, all of us have like either husbands in mining or dads or like it's, I've grown up in coal mining too. So, you know, I get the twelve-hour shifts and get the day, the doggies, the afternoon shifts, the pre-break, the swerving all over the road trying to not hit. Like, you know, if you're not in that area, it's literally real. Like, you know, I used to see it every single day. I hit the wrong time to come back home last night and it was like bumper to bumper for like a certain stage getting out of singleton. and I'm just like oh my god like can you slow down can you stop waiting on the road do I slow down like it's real it really is real so um yeah just you know if you are finishing you know doing shift change please drive responsibly because yeah yeah when I'm on the road it can be really nerve-wracking to um kind of drive home a bit tired so pull over and have a nap if you need to but Yes. Well, thank you very much again for joining us today, Jeff. And please share this around with anyone who might be unfortunately going through that stage, whether it's a car accident or a workers' comp. There's no shame with anything. It doesn't cost anything to reach out to a lawyer to get an initial consult to see whether you do have the rights. So I definitely would be recommending that and just not toughing it up and think that, you know, it will get better because maybe it won't. And yeah, you might want your chances if you don't reach out. So yeah, thanks again. And I will catch you guys next time. See ya. Thanks, Stace. Thank you.
