Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Stacey M Show. I'm here with the lovely Phoebs, who I've known, wow, probably most part of this year, I think. I had a bit of a mental blank. We probably have known each other for the best part of this year, and we're just in the business masterminding together, and we clicked pretty quickly in Noosa, and we have annoyed each other ever since. But I'll get Phoebs to introduce herself. And today's topic is in relation to narcissistic abuse, using court as a tool of controlling people still. So pretty interesting podcast and it's coming from Phoebe's point of view as having to actually unfortunately go through this with somebody. So Phoebe, I'll get you to introduce yourself and yeah, we'll start the show. Yeah. Hey, Stacey. It's so good to be on this show. Hello to all the listeners. I am delighted to be on the show today on the Stacey M Show. I'm Phoebe Lay, founder of Thrive and Shine Co. and agency Targeted to Resuscitate Digital. I run a digital marketing agency and do all things social media and LinkedIn lead generation. And I also have my own podcast where we share raw and inspiring conversations with other global experts and authors, speakers and the like. um and it's called inspired to thrive and shine thank you phoebe so um i don't even know how how we started to come up with this but we've been planning the podcast for a little while now and it's probably just my background with family law and that's probably like how the conversation got started because it's not usually a conversation that you start with somebody randomly that you'd know from a business perspective, I suppose. So we're obviously careful enough, comfortable enough with each other to start it. But when we first met, Phoebe's did say that she had been in a really controlling relationship and she had only just finished the court process attached to that relationship. So today, you know, I'm obviously big on, you know, I have the narcissist playbook and manipulation. I think the word narcissist is... probably really overused, but it's a term that most people refer to. So I do refer to like manipulation as well or just someone that's really, really toxic. But using DV and also using court as a tool of control to keep control of the person that they're trying to force through court, which probably didn't really need to be there or it didn't need to drag on as much as it could because they were just kind of, you So in this case, yeah, we're just going to share a little bit about Phoebe's story to what she's comfortable with and what she's found useful and how we can help other people in this situation, both from a male and a female perspective because, yeah, It's not like it's pro-women, pro-men. In Phoebe's case, it was the other person was a male. But in my case, as a lawyer, I'm getting a lot of males coming to me with the female being that toxic person. But I'm sure that there's going to be tips that you can take away to today if you are in this relationship or you know that someone that is. So, Phoebe, I suppose, before the whole court thing happened, can you tell us a little bit about maybe the life inside the relationship you know at the start was it all rainbows and unicorns and then it like turned and you know you kept doubting yourself like what's the um yeah how can you share a little bit about the um the start of the relationship Well, I think everyone's experience with domestic violence or narcissistic abuse or even just psychological and emotional abuse is going to be quite different, but similar at the same time. And across the board from all the different people that I've spoken to, including on my podcast and women in my community, I think one of the big things that a lot of people will relate to is that feeling that you are on cloud nine at the beginning of the relationship. It feels like you are with your soulmate. It feels like this person understands you more than anybody else in the world. And usually they are very, very good at making you feel like you are their one and only. Lots and lots of sweet talking, acts of... like grand gestures. I think I was going through like a cloud myself before I met that person because I was experiencing a lot of heartbreak from the loss of my grandfather, my best friend and I kind of like drifting apart a little bit. And also my boyfriend and I who were living interstate at the time, um like slowly you know ending things from a long distance relationship so this person come comes in and like kind of really makes me feel like you know i'm loved and i'm you know i'm like everything to them and they make themselves pretty much indisposable would be the word. They are helping you in every area of your life, being your best friend, maybe helping you with your shopping, maybe helping you with your business if you have one, and potentially giving you lots of gifts. I was receiving gifts that were unwanted. And the early signs that I ignored were And really subtle threats like, you better not return that or I'll be really mad. And subtle, I guess, subtle hints of violence that I didn't even experience or that I didn't even see, rather, that I didn't even notice until... it just slowly got worse and worse and worse. So I think a lot of your listeners will probably resonate with the fact that it's gradual, it's subtle, and the love bombing in the beginning is so intense that it becomes an addiction. You start to really get hooked on that feeling, on that high, and that feeling like you are somebody's, you know, number one girl, essentially. And essentially like what I experienced was several awareness points where I started to realize this isn't right. This person is not healthy. This is not right for me. And each time I tried to leave, the love bombing would intensify or I personally would just struggle myself because I wasn't in a state where I was fully healed before I entered that relationship. And there were things that i hadn't dealt with and so i became very very i guess weak to um you know walk away and so yeah like there's so much we could talk about that and unpack right there but from my experience yeah there was a lot of love forming um and leaving was very hard and it was you know, like they say, on average, it takes at least a minimum of seven times on average for a person to leave one of these types of relationships. And for me, it was definitely the case. And what do you think was the the moment where you realize, you know, for that seventh time, for example, did you think that something had to like you had to approach it differently? So this one was successful. And I suppose what was the turning point in your mind was to go, wow, okay, this isn't normal and I need to start to prepare to leave or I need to work out how to end the relationship with this person. Yeah, what was the process that you had with that? I think for me, There were moments of realisation where I was like, okay, this is getting quite serious. And, you know, there were points where I was starting to piece things together. But the pain of being apart was so intense because they say it's like being on a drug. It's like a full-on addiction equivalent to a heroin, they say. And so I think for me like that realisation, was definitely there. But being apart from him was so painful that it was really hard to stay away. So I actually learned the hardest way possible. Like I, I really saw the worst part of this person before I could leave. And by that stage, I had left so many times that he was done with me. Like he was like, I, I've got no juice left on this lemon. This girl is no longer admiring me, no longer, you know, validating me because what a person like that, a narcissist or an abuser or, you know, like an emotionally unhealthy person, what they normally crave in their partner is validation because deep down inside they feel really, really, you know like they feel shameful or they feel maybe worthless whatever it is they they feel these horrible toxic emotions that they can't deal with without um you know a lot of books they use the term narcissistic supply um or supply and I and I was that person's supply at the start I was validating them, loving on them, being like their mother, you know, like just being that person that wanted to like solve their problems, heal them, fix them. And so by the time I had left several times and I was calling it out saying like, this is not right. You cannot do this. You are doing this, this, this, and you are not who you say you are. He was like, I'm done with this lemon. So I learned the hard way, which was when he had found the next supplier which happened to be a girl that I know. And I guess thankfully, you know, she kind of, she replaced me and really saved me from, potentially a lot lot worse so um yeah that was that was the moment because I think I was in denial for a long time thinking like there's no way he could ever love anyone like me you know I'm this and that and he says I'm like this and he says we're like that and he says I'm his soulmate and surely no one would understand him the way I do so it wasn't until he'd found the new supplier that I realized actually I was definitely replaceable and he'll be doing the same to her so yeah and yeah it's i mean it's great that you're out of obviously that situation maybe not so great for your friend we don't know what that situation is so we could go any way of convo conversation with that side of it but i suppose for you it's also we use the word lucky and i'm not quite sure whether that's the right word or not but that you know, because you had so many attempts, it was like, as you said, like you weren't the supplier anymore. Like you were the too hard basket. She's catching on to this. I now need to go find somebody else because not everybody kind of has that opportunity either. And I know with opportunities, the right word to use there either, but some people don't, um, have the, we'll use the word opportunity for the, you know, the person who is the toxic person in the relationship to kind of give up because sometimes that person will just stay there and then absolutely like, as you said, you know, trying to take friends away from you or isolate you from family and then trying to make you have no self-esteem left and make, you know, ripping absolutely everything out of inside of you and chances are, you know, they could be off having an affair or cheating or anything as well with that possibly new supply. But the fact that this person was obviously He obviously knew what he was doing and when you started to fight back, he's like, right, so she's going to get too hard, you know, I'm just going to go find, you know, supply somewhere else but I'm still going to make this person's life shit. So when the relationship finally did end and you, you know, and he had found his new supply, what happened after that? Because obviously you ended up at court with this. So what was the, was it not as, you know, um it wasn't quite the clean cut you thought it might have been so yes he found somebody else but he was still trying to you know use you you know to to mentally fuck you over type thing like what was the what happened after that yeah so I guess like just to rewind a little bit about that like that term lucky uh I I definitely think that the scenario was different for me to how a lot of people have what a lot of people have experienced because i was making it very difficult for him to manipulate me further so yes i was definitely manipulated and i definitely fell for the spell like most people do but as soon as i became aware of it my biggest I guess, you know, like it wasn't very strategic, but I was calling it out. I was saying like, you are not who you say you are. And I think that's one of the reasons why he dropped me because he also found another opportunity. And you're right, there are a lot of people that will end up being stalked. And I already experienced the whole isolation thing, although I wasn't that easy to isolate because I have my own car, I have my own business, I have my own independence, I have my own financial independence. So thankfully there were measures in place that I didn't even realise were there to protect me that... kind of prevented me from falling further victim and, you know, like for it to go even more south. But I would say that definitely the fact that I had my own circle that he wasn't aware of, the fact that I had a lot of friends in the background that he wasn't aware of and the fact that I would message people on different apps, maybe Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, phone, text, delete hide so he couldn't catch on to all of that so yeah so i protected myself from the isolation in that way and um i guess yeah i guess like i i can't really you know delve too much on the court thing but no no no no you can share i i did um end up going through um getting an intervention order on on this person because I needed to protect myself and I needed to make sure that, you know, like I was fully protected. And so one of the best things that I discovered was the orange door. I have no idea how I came across them. I think someone recommended them to me and I was like, okay, I'll just... you know, give it a go. And most people's mindset, because I've heard women say, oh, it's just another system. It's another process. It's another intake. And it's like, no, no, no. These things are here to protect you. They are there to, they are resources that we need to tap into that are free and available. And if we don't tap into that, I would have never had the realization that I was in an abusive relationship. At that stage, I still wasn't even calling it a domestic violent relationship. I still didn't realise what I had been through and what I was experiencing until that first phone call with an intake person at the Orange Door, telling them my story and just releasing that over to someone. It was like handing it over to somebody else and saying, this is what i've been through this is what i'm really confused about i don't know what the heck is going on but this is what's going on and that led to this uncovering of resources like so many free resources are available out there for people that are going through this no matter you know like whether you are earning an income living on the street or working out woolies and coals you have access to this and I think that every if you have access to something that's going to support you through probably one of the most difficult things that you'll ever go through in your life is Take it because that is your key and your door. And I guess the one thing that I've been told by many different professionals is I was lucky that I was really utilizing everything that I could to pull myself back up. So it was things like the Orange Door. It was things like, you know, family violence services that I can't name, you know, even legal assistance services. And I, you know, Stacey, I learned a whole lot about the law, family law, and how it you know, how people can use it to manipulate others. And essentially, I just took it to the full degree that I wanted to. Past a certain point, I said to myself, I'd already lost so much time and money to this person. I didn't want to spend a single more, not another dollar on wasting my energy and my time on this. So I took it to a certain point and I went, I'm going to leave it if it requires anything more. And the... The message was clear. Like the message was clear. It was like, don't F with me. Yeah. And he left and I've never heard from him since. Yeah. And like it takes a lot of courage to work out like how far to take it as well. And what I always say is, you know, if you want to put it in the court of like winners and losers and if you want to stick with the term narcissist and, you know, have that incorporate, you know, the perpetrator as, you know, manipulative or whatever, they're always going to win. Like they're never going to lose. And so one of the first things I say, it's like, we could do anything and they're going to still think that they're going to win. And you know what, like let them win. If that means something, you know, it's not necessarily saying that they're going to win, but if they think that they have won, then let them think that, you know, and is your energy and your time and your money for the next however long period going going to be worth it fighting out in court over like a property settlement or a divorce or an abo or an advo or whatever um yeah i remember us talking about it sorry to interrupt but i remember meeting you at the noosa mastermind and hearing what you do family law you know you're a lawyer i'm like what this is unreal and i i you know i just met you only been like two days that we were sitting together and i and it It was you, me, and another friend of ours, and I said, I just blurted out this is what I'm going through, and I don't know if I should continue pursuing an IVO just for a piece of paper. And one of the best advice you guys gave me was, like, just leave it. Like, just keep building your business because the best – And I'm not about revenge at all, but I think that someone quoted something like the best revenge is success. And I don't believe in revenge, but I do believe that the best way to move on and to heal is to carry on with your life and be happy and joyful and aligned. And that was the best advice, Stacey. Like it did still take me a few more weeks to like fully, you know, like let it go and accept it. But yeah, it was, you're right, because if you continue fighting, you're still giving them what they want, which is supply. It's attention, supply, energy. But the moment you're like, no, here's my hand. I don't want to have anything to do with you. You go and take whatever you want and continue with your life. you have essentially in a way won the battle if you want to see it as a win or a lose. But there is no battle if you realise that you are now no longer, you have nothing to do with that person anymore and you're free. And that's the best, you know, that's the best outcome. And it's easier than that, like, you know, to... To have that realisation as well and, you know, we're not going to go into the fact of, you know, where ABOs are worth a paper they've written on. Like that's a completely different chat. Another podcast episode. I mean, a paper's not really going to protect you when someone is, you know, at the back of your house, you know, on a Sunday night. Like that piece of paper is not going to do jack. If that person wants to come and harm you, the piece of paper is not going to make a difference. Yeah. And that's another way. But there's pros and cons of that as well. I said, I'm not going to go into that route because we're going to get totally sidetracked. But it's easier said than done kind of walking away from something. So I know some people are in, you know, you can't even deem like a situation is subjective, I suppose. So what you experience, maybe I would have experienced that worse and I'd still be in a relationship or, you know, so everyone is a little bit different in how they're brought up and how they're educated and, depend how well the manipulator is, how well they've isolated people. So, you know, you had friends you didn't know about, you had business. So, you know, you kind of have those lifelines out there and I can completely appreciate how difficult it can be. You know, some of the things that we get is, oh, you know, it's, It's not good and it's not bad, but, you know, I don't want to have to, like, lose the house and then, you know, what are the kids going to think? And so it's like people stay in them because they might not necessarily be physically abusive. You know, they might be happy physically. Happies are probably not the right word to use either, but they might decide to stay in the relationship because, okay, well, it's a bit of emotional abuse every now and then, but, hey, you know, this is just what a relationship is or, you know, whatever like that. So having the realisation to... even decide for yourself to go it's like you know what yep i can keep fighting this in court and wasting my money and keep giving that person what they want or you know what i and you know if they think that they've won amazing but to me i have won because that means that this is over i can start my life i'm not wasting energy on someone that doesn't need it and The best revenge is going to be me moving on with my life and I can't control that he went with my friend. I can't control my friend. That person would obviously probably know what happens. That's up to them. Like that's not my responsibility. My responsibility is to heal myself and to make sure that the next relationship I go into is not going to be based on the prior relationship. So completely appreciate that. That's like easier said than done. Yeah. But, yeah, as you said before, you have healing to do because you don't want to go into the same relationship next. So it's not like you've just... you know, okay, that's done and now I'm ready to date again. I was like, well, hang on, I need to make sure that I don't fall into this next relationship that, you know, with manipulation and toxic behaviour and everything like that. So, you know, it's not like you wake up and it's all done but recognising the fact that, yep, like he's not worth it, she's not worth it, you know, that's great courage to you, Pheebs. Like for someone that we only met for two days, taking my advice, must have done all right. Yeah. I, you know, I think that what you've just shared is advice that is worth its weight in gold. We are not responsible for anybody. And that was how I had found myself entangled in that crap. And one of the things that I learned from this whole experience, which was such a gift in the end, it was like I turned around and virtually and I said thank you to him because I was like you've taught me so much like there were so many like golden nuggets even even because he was a master manipulator like hands down one of the most professional manipulators like anyone has heard of and I won't go into that but um even during the love bombing and the manipulating, he felt like my therapist because he would give me, like, such smart advice and he was just, you know, like in some ways quite wise and in other ways not. But one of the best, like, nuggets of wisdom that I learned is, you like you can't fix anybody you can give somebody a hint and drop them a little hint and if they don't take it it's their journey it's their journey to face that situation and to learn from it because for whatever reason they've also wound up in that place and for whatever reason they've attracted this and they need to go through it you can't save someone through a situation that you've been through because you're really taking away the lesson for them. And if they don't learn it with this person and they still don't learn it in ten years, yeah, you're right, Stacey, it's not our problem. It's, you know, it's everyone's journey. I mean, this sounds really philosophical but, yeah, everyone's journey is different. For me, I only needed one perpetrator to know that I need to stop fixing people but, yeah, in lead up to that there were friends that were like oh you know you like projects don't you like you love a good project and you know so in lit all the way up to that that was like my big final wake-up call and so like if you wind it back i think we all grow up with a few issues here and there that we need to resolve and if we don't resolve things early when they're small, the lesson just gets bigger and bigger. And for me, that was like my big giant lesson. But no matter how big a lesson, I think the key is it can still be solved. It can still be fixed. And there is a great life at the other end. It's just how soon do we want to deal with it? yeah and as i said like it's you know it's all easier said than done i think i'm very much the same i always like to help as like as much as i can and you know um that's possibly why i mean i won't go into the health but obviously i have health concerns at the moment and you know because i've neglected myself and i've been looking after like everybody else but um even before all the recent stuff I had started to set in boundaries like okay so you said that you're going to change or you're going to be doing this and how many years do I track and we're still here so like dude like I can still support you but it's getting to the point where I'm drained and I'm sick and tired of wasting my energy and then it just gets to a point that's like okay so when when do you pull yourself back do you do you still is it enough for you to end that friendship in that relationship and whatever that is or do you simply put that part aside and set the boundary to that to go okay well i've tried to help you with this it's been five years you still haven't done anything I can't put any more energy into this. So, you know, you're on your own for that part, but you still give them, you know, a friendship or attention or relationship to everything else. So, you know, it's up to you as to how far you go with that boundary or setting that boundary in the first place and then working out, okay, well, is this a deal breaker? Like, do I keep... flogging myself to get this person help and that they're not helping themselves is this enough to end the friendship in the relationship because it's just so you know that the boundary is not there and it's consuming energy it's um and there's no right or wrong answer because everybody is different so i completely get like the fixing thing boundaries is definitely something i've started i was like you know what i need to be selfish i'm putting especially now i need to put myself forward um if you don't like that and you have an issue with that then i guess we're not friends like you know and i'm not losing sleep over it because if they're not there for me when i'm like quite ill now then you know that's not a friendship so even severing those ties as well uh can be easier said than done but um yeah so did you want to speak a little bit so I know that we had a chat and you know we were saying that um the person was using the the court still as a tool of control so you obviously went to the court and tried to protect yourself legally um he was obviously trying to make that process a nightmare for you until the point you went you know what cool you've won I pulled the pin do whatever you think you know thank you for teaching me those lessons what things was he doing in court to still kind of have that control so he was obviously like trying to fight against the agreement like and obviously don't share what you can't not share but there's obviously still manipulation tactics being used in court in front of the judge or the magistrate or the dpp or whoever it might be um to still have that piece of control over you even though he had moved on with somebody else Yeah, so he, I guess... was quite tactical um wasn't you know his first rodeo and i would say that um i was a little bit late to the party because the moment he caught wind he tried to go uh you know to he basically made up some stories that had never ever happened um saying that i had done things that i wouldn't even of doing in, you know, like, and also as a female is not physically possible. And he had no evidence of it. But just tried to, like, threaten, like, threaten me with the courts. Tried to put an IVO on me. Didn't work. Tried to... basically threatened me with legal fees of forty eight thousand dollars or something ridiculous saying that if you don't drop your ivo you're gonna have to pay for mine um you know like pay for my legal fees because you're wasting time by pursuing this um even though he wasn't willing to drop you know his lies whereas mine was all based on you know real scenarios so it was just Yeah, it was just getting to a point where, Stacey, it was becoming a waste of energy and time. And for a lot of people who go through this, when you've been through so much trauma and stress, it becomes this complex like you know it's this is how complex PTSD happens because you're going through something traumatic again and again and you're being put through it again and again so it's like you've left a relationship you go back then there's more abuse then you leave you go back more and then you finally leave and then now there's abuse through the systems and that causes complex PTSD and I was aware that this was this was kind of leading to something that you know, was going to, you know, lead to complex PTSD. So I basically, I was like, okay, like this energy that, you know, the way it's making me angry, the way it's making my heart rate go up, this isn't healthy. I'm not a person that likes to sit in anger, resentment, like unhealthy emotions for a long time. I want to let it go and then move on. And so I realized, and this was another gift that he gave me that wasn't so much him directly, but I discovered EMDR through this whole mess of I did. And again, this is all part of the services that are available to men and women that have been through this kind of stuff. I discovered EMDR and it was covered. It was funded. It was covered for me. as a victim of domestic violence. So thankfully, you know, we addressed all of this really quickly and that started to actually resolve and address some earlier, like even some childhood issues, even like memories of like me in the playground, you know, like accidentally bumping into someone in the playground where, you know, they hurt their ear and I told myself I was a bad person, that kind of stuff. EMDR was so powerful that within two or three sessions, I neutralized what would have taken years of therapy. And it's, it's like the gold standard, I guess, you know, trauma healing tool I would ever recommend. Like I think out of any type of therapy, especially like, when you compare it to talk therapy, which is not only, to me, not very effective, but it's re-traumatizing for some to have to re-talk about an event. EMDR is quick. Within sixty seconds, sorry, within sixty minutes, just from moving your eyes left to right or holding buzzers on your left and your right hand and activating the left lobe and the right lobe of the brain, you're desensitizing an event or an experience And you're basically, you know, like re, I guess, you're you're relearning that something isn't as bad or as traumatic as it is so yeah yeah and it's very simple so i like became a clinical hypnotherapist last this year last year i don't remember i don't know what you did last year i can't remember but very similar so mdr is something i would love to be able to do um but again not a psychiatrist not a psychologist not looking into getting fights with them But very similar to the EMDR is that, you know, you're not necessarily reliving. You're just like kind of like changing the story a little bit, like make it a little bit less, you know, um what you're remembering so like desensitizing yourself as opposed to we're not like you know pretending that it didn't happen but we're just changing the story a little bit and that's the whole reason i um had studied it because it's so relevant like we're not taught trauma-informed anything at uni um and i still don't think it is so to you know from a lawyer i suppose for me it wasn't just enough being a lawyer so you know it wouldn't have been enough for me to go okay well this is your problem not mine do you want my help i'm a lawyer i don't care what you feel you know give me your instructions and on on your way um the fact that there are so many different services out there don't be ashamed to use them like they are there for a reason i don't care whether you have a job and you think you should be paying for something with you if you're feeling bad for that then maybe you can pay maybe you make a donation like I don't know whatever it is we don't have the orange door here that might just be a big thing and there's plenty of other services around that would be very similar though like there is no shame in utilizing those services and you know Don't think that your only option is maybe a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Yes, definitely maybe you need them, but maybe you just need a couple of, like, hypnotherapy sessions. Maybe you need a couple of MDR sessions. Tapping. Tapping's not quite something I can quite do myself. I'm trying to get into it. But breath work as well. Like... You know, kind of don't think, think functional medicine wise as well, not just kind of the traditional medicine, the traditional Western medicine. Yeah, somatic exercises, you know, like where I've seen, I mean, I haven't done it myself, but I've seen exercises where people do like certain deep breathing and they end up. shaking and releasing trauma from their body like there's so many available tools out there and things that you can even access online and well that's what I'm looking at doing now like for this whole whole cancer thing like if you Hang on, hippy-dippy, you go into it, like, from a lawyer's, like, hey perspective, it's all, like, built-in trauma and resentment and stuff. So last night I'm, like, Googling, like, who does, like, singing bowls? Who does somatic release in my area? Like, that's all stuff that I'm even, like, pursuing, like, from the health point of view. So it's not going to – it shouldn't hurt. I'm not going to say it's not going to hurt because you don't know what's going to happen, like, what feeling-wise might come up. But, you know, I definitely think that – Some of the, you know, the hippy-dippy holistic methods, you know, sometimes more effective than, you know, filling you up with pills or going to a site for years, reliving the same thing over and over again. So, but again, I guess the point of that was like, please don't be ashamed to go use those services. They are, they're there for a reason. So I suppose Phoebs now, so we're a few months post all of this happening. There's obviously still a lot of internal work that you're doing on yourself. How are you feeling? Like, you know, I'm assuming like there's a whole weight off your shoulders and, you know, you're happy to be heading in a new direction. You're not how having... you know, you're starting to find feeds again, I suppose. So tell us now post relationship post, you know, not going ahead with the court stuff anymore. How how are you feeling and looking forward to now starting the next chapter of your life? Oh, So much better. I mean, there's a huge difference between post-relationship Pheebs who was pretending that her life was all good. She was, you know, like, because I remember one of my ways of dealing with it, because I kept saying to myself, I'm not going to let this person drag me down. I am not going to let this person affect me. I'm going to be strong. I'm going to have fun. I am a fun, adventurous, you know, lighthearted person. And I was lying to myself. I was carrying anger, pain, hurt, disappointment. I was going dancing five days a week. So on the surface, I'm going to bachata. So I do Latin dancing, as you know, Stacey, which is a very like central thing. lots of human connection kind of dance. And I'm doing all of this, but I'm feeling exhausted. And I was getting to a point where my neck was so tight. It was like my neck and my shoulders were just clenched up like all the time. It was painful all the time. I was trying to massage my shoulders all day and it was all that stress. It was all that trauma. It was all the negative emotions that I knew was bad, but I still couldn't control because it was sitting there in my chest and it needed to be released somehow, but I didn't know how. I just knew that I was aware of what was going on like I had that awareness but I also knew that it was going to be a process and still you know it's been over a year now but that healing is a journey that continues and it continues and it gets smaller and smaller but I don't think that we we need to expect to get to a point where it's like that's done with I'm all done I think that I'd be in denial and I think we'd be in denial if we said that we never have to experience those bad events or those, you know, those negative emotions again. It could be something as small as seeing a car that is the same model as your ex's, or it could be something as small as driving through the neighborhood where you guys were living or a winery or whatever. you know, a label or a brand or a cafe, whatever, but there will be triggers. It's just that they get less and less and they get smaller and smaller. I actually, funnily enough, a couple of days after the court thing ran into my ex and he he saw me I saw him we we weren't like physically um face to face with each other um you know he was in the car with the new girlfriend I was on a date with a really cute guy from Sydney and um I don't know if it did. I really don't care. And I smiled and I had, Stacey, I had no idea I was capable of not breaking down if I saw him on the street. I thought in my mind, I was like, if I ever run into him, I'm probably going to freeze and I'm probably going to like be, you know, I don't know. I don't know what I thought, but I didn't think it was going to be the way it was. It was two days after court and I saw him. He saw me. looked over at the guy i was the new guy i was with and i just smiled and i thought how good is life i was like oh i'm so happy i'm i'm here and and he's still there and you know poor her but anyway um and carried on and the date was awesome um but the point is And it's been a year even since then, since running into him. And I think that there are still things that will be triggering, that will make you feel like, oh, how does someone like that exist? How can they do such a thing? Or how could I have been so... you know, silly or vulnerable or whatever, naive, you might have those thoughts, but you can still carry on with your life and have a great life. And, yes, there will be times that, you know, where you get distracted by those maybe thoughts or emotions or, you know, those negative feelings. But, yeah, it gets less and less. And I guess now my focus on... like more than anything is continuing to work on myself, continuing my healing journey, continuing EMDR, like EMDR turned into this whole, like, I love it now. I'm like, I want to EMDR all events that bother me, you know, anything that makes me feel, you know, a bit angry or tense. I want to EMDR it because I don't want to carry that. I don't, I want to be able to, like seeing your ex and being able to smile, I want to be able to have that with all memories of the past that were negative, whether it's losing someone or, you know, something or a betrayal. Yeah. Yeah it's this journey that you know I had a chat a picnic with a really beautiful friend of mine the other day and he said to me you know you are like my best friend and I was really not expecting that and I thought wow that's beautiful because I don't think I have that one best friend who I tell everything to and we were sharing about you know all these things and he said isn't all this therapy just really bad for you like isn't it re-traumatizing doesn't it pull you down and Stacey, I think that when people ask you that, you don't have to explain things to everyone. Like we need to explain to someone that therapy isn't pulling you down. It's actually healing and it's effective and it's good. If they don't believe in it, you just go, oh, yeah, maybe, and you move on and talk about something else, the weather, anything. Yeah, but it also depends whether they've had that experience. Like not all people, not all... we're not all created equal. So if you have a bad experience with a therapist or you think a psych is the only method as well, there's all those preconceived ideas that we have. It's same as lawyers, like we're the most untrustworthy, misliked, you know, professions up there type thing. But, you know, that's because people have all these preconceived ideas that like we're all assholes type thing. But similar to therapy, people are not They're misinformed as to, you know, what is available out there. But as you said, though, like you don't have control over that. You could say, yeah, I've got what I'm finding like really useful, you know, but if they're already having that, you you know, expectation that it's going to be shit, then like maybe it's not for them because I'm not going into it like with the right mindset type thing. But if you're definitely open to things, I definitely think, you know, MDR or hypnotherapy or maybe you need to have a counsellor or whatever it might be. Sometimes venting to chat GPT could be enough. I'm not saying that's going to be replacing, you know, a psych or anything, but just if you don't have that friend that you can bounce things off. Sometimes chat GPT is just like, you know, I've had a shit of a day. Tell me like how fucking good I am or whatever. Am I overreacting? Like whatever it is, it can be that really good mutual, you know, person, I suppose. But to wrap it up, if you were to give a piece of advice or say anything to finish off today's show, what would it be? I think it's that we are so much more capable than we think we are. And sometimes when we are stuck alone in our heads, things feel a lot worse and a lot bigger than it actually seems or than it actually is. And in order to give it perspective, the best thing to do is to give back and to talk to other people. In this whole journey, I discovered that my issues, which felt so huge, were actually incomparably small compared to stories, books, experiences that I've heard of other victims and people that have been through so much worse. But no matter the degree, the degree of the trauma, the degree of the manipulation or the abuse, we can all heal and we can all get better. And It starts by releasing it from your body and your shoulders and your stomach and talking to someone, whether it's a friend, a therapist or doing a podcast. Like one of the things that really helps me get through it was giving back. And I know we talked about boundaries and not trying to fix and help everybody. But for me, by giving, by putting my voice out there and using my podcast, that was the beginning of my healing journey because I felt like, this shit that happened, now we can turn it into good. So that wasn't a waste of a year and three months or two months or whatever. That was, you know, I think that it's essential that we discover our way of healing and that we know that it's not the end of the world. There is always someone out there that will listen. There's One Eight Hundred Respect, which is a twenty four hour helpline for anyone that even just needs to talk about something bad that happens. And even if you call the wrong service or helpline, they are always going to direct you to the right place. They're never going to just hang up on you and leave you there. So just know that there's always a number that you can call. It could be the most embarrassing lowest of low point for you. But if you don't make that call, you don't know what's available and where that leads because one good thing happens after another when you start taking those steps. And it can lead to just, you know, someone else kind of rescuing you from that pit that you couldn't get yourself out of, that sticky mud, so to speak. Yeah, well, that's great, Phoebe. Thank you so much. And, yes, I can even see, you know, we don't see each other face-to-face physically very often. On Zooms and stuff we do, but I think we saw each other like a month or so ago. But even just, you know, like in your... you're a different person to what you were like when we met in Noosa around in July. So, so happy that, you know, you're using it as a, you know, we'll call it a positive experience and, you know, you're using it for, you know, to do good. So thank you so much for sharing your story. I know that would have been really difficult. and obviously if you are listening and you want to know more about Phoebs or even work with Phoebs if you are wanting to you know do social media things or whatever yeah we'll pop Phoebs links below but thank you very much for joining me today Phoebs. Thank you Stacey it was such a pleasure and I can't wait to see you soon and I hope that things get really really good for you too. Yes, I am all on for the somatic stuff. So I will be throwing everything at this. So I'll have to let everybody know how it all goes. All right. Thanks, guys. I'll see you next show. Bye. Bye.
